Faith relies on trust. — Banno
It's time for you to make clear just exactly what you're on about. It appears to me you're critical of both people who have beliefs and the beliefs themselves you 1) don't like, 2) think are inconsistent, and 3) think are evil. And I do not question that there are such people. But your category error is breathtaking. So&so is an idiot, is inconsistent in his beliefs, claims to be a Christian, and thinks evil thoughts. Well, you can have your So&so. So what? But your conclusion appears to be that Christianity is bad.There is an inconsistency in conjoining these proposals. — Banno
Can they articulate a nice version that retains the distinctive ideas of Christianity?
Same for "I have faith in the Lord"."I believe in family" is perhaps a sentiment, or a rhetorical ploy, rather than a belief. — Banno
There is nothing even remotely novel about Lewis's argument. — Ennui Elucidator
The interesting variation here is that the argument asks us not to consider the morality of such an evil god, but of those who consider him worthy of praise or worship. — Banno
you don't think realizing that neverending damnation is immoral could cause a belief revision of some sort (contra voluntarism)? — jorndoe
This topic has not, so far as I am aware, been discussed in this forum before. — Banno
. .It is profane in You to do such a thing, to kill a righteous one with a wicked one, rendering the righteous one like the wicked one. It is profane in You. Will the Judge of all the land not do justice? — “Genesis 18:25ish”
And Jonah commenced to come into the city, one day's walk, and he proclaimed and said, "In another forty days Nineveh shall be overturned!"
. . .
And God saw their deeds, that they had repented of their evil way, and the Lord relented concerning the evil that He had spoken to do to them, and He did not do it.
Now it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was grieved.
. . .
8Now it came to pass when the sun shone, that God appointed a stilling east wind, and the sun beat on Jonah's head, and he fainted, and he begged to die, and he said, "My death is better than my life."
9And God said to Jonah; Are you very grieved about the kikayon? And he said, "I am very grieved even to death."
10And the Lord said: You took pity on the kikayon, for which you did not toil nor did you make it grow, which one night came into being and the next night perished.
11Now should I not take pity on Nineveh, the great city, in which there are many more than one hundred twenty thousand people who do not know their right hand from their left, and many beasts as well?
— “Jonah 3 to 4”
One can reproach god, is expected to do so, and should be criticized for encouraging god to do bad things. — Ennui Elucidator
Worship is not, and has never been, blind cheering for all that god does. — Ennui Elucidator
I’m probably missing this suggestion in the passage from Jonah you quote. Was it in there? Or do you have another source? — Srap Tasmaner
… And he prayed to the Lord and said, "Please, O Lord, was this not my contention while I was still on my land? For this reason I had hastened to flee to Tarshish, for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger, with much kindness, and relenting of evil. And now, O Lord, take now my soul from me, for my death is better than my life."
And the Lord said: Are you deeply grieved? — “Jonah”
It is Abraham that reproaches god for going to kill a bunch of innocent people in Sodom. — Ennui Elucidator
BTW my computer will not download the River of Fire you linked; it advises that it is a security risk. — Janus
We can, do and ought judge folk by their beliefs as well as their actions. — Banno
I don't think something so basic was seriously disputed. — fdrake
Let's focus on the ones who believe in it in Hell and eternal torture in some regard + worship the entity that tortures - regardless of their attitude towards it.
@Isaac and jorndoe seem to have made points in this quarter.
I find it quite plausible that they don't 'really worship' or 'really believe in' the God that tortures, but I'd struggle to spell out why. — fdrake
But hold on there. Yes, this is just restating the criteria for being vulnerable to Lewis’s attack. But if you look at the criteria as ways of avoiding the attack, you get a pretty strange result. Lewis says you ought not worship someone (human or divine) you believe to be evil; to please Lewis, you can of course (1) not believe in him at all; (2) not worship him; or (3) not believe he’s evil. What’s odd is that (3) is apparently entirely up to you — you can just choose to believe God, being good, would not countenance eternal damnation, declare your disbelief and be rewarded with Lewis’s approval, even if hell is real. That’s right, even if hell is real, all you have to do is not believe in this part of reality, and you get a free pass from Lewis. What the actual fuck? — Srap Tasmaner
I was raised to be in bucket 1 but I’m not and I have no idea why. — Srap Tasmaner
Re judging people by their actions:
This is a very generalized heuristics, and thus often unfair or useless for judging people.
By the time someone does something that could be problematic, it's often already too late. Such as discovering only a few years into your marriage that your spouse is a thief, or serial killer.
On the other hand, judging people merely by their actions results in the kind of absolute stigma of convicted felons, who, even though they have served their prison sentence in full, are never really allowed back into society, no matter what they do. — baker
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