Yes, we already know you're well-read. — baker
I'm still of the view that he was a true jñāni. — Wayfarer
The style is often repetitive due to their original form as an oral tradition but I'm saying, they possess degree of coherency and philosophical depth that I don't think is found in any other single source, but I'm not going to try and argue that at length. — Wayfarer
So I'm still studying, although I do ask myself why. — Wayfarer
So he says that naturalism and Platonism (which he says is philosophy) are fundamentally incommensurable, which is a point I constantly make. I'm attempting to educate myself but Gerson is really hard to read, as his work is so deeply embedded in the Classical literature — Wayfarer
I'm not saying he wasn’t. He may well have been “a true jñāni”. My point was that we have no hard proof that he was. — Apollodorus
It follows that Buddhism, for example, cannot be higher than Platonism, unless it can be demonstrated that Buddhism leads to something that is higher than Ultimate Reality. — Apollodorus
Origen undertakes to show that the simplest disciple of God’s word knows Him better than the philosophers who seek him by their own methods (Against Celsus 7.42), that Plato misrepresents the fall and diminishes the Creator, that if his myths are deep, the biblical allegories are deeper and less perverse. — SEP, Origen
If Philosophy (i.e., philosophy in the original Greek sense) is about finding Truth, then we must start from the premise that Truth exists but it is obscured by un-Truth. — Apollodorus
this can be done only if the philosopher identifies with something higher and takes position on a higher ground .... — Apollodorus
For all of Hadot’s evident enthusiasm for Plotinus’ philosophy, however, PSV (Plotinus Simplicity of Vision) concludes with an assessment of the modern world’s inescapable distance from Plotinus’ thought and experience. Hadot distances himself from Plotinus’ negative assessment of bodily existence, and he also displays a caution in his support for mysticism, citing the skeptical claims of Marxism and psychoanalysis about professed mysticism, considering it a lived mystification or obfuscation of truth (PSV 112-113). Hadot would later recall that, after writing the book in a month and returning to ordinary life, he had his own uncanny experience: “. . . seeing the ordinary folks all around me in the bakery, I . . . had the impression of having lived a month in another world, completely foreign to our world, and worse than this — totally unreal and even unlivable.” — IEP, Pierre Hadot
religion must ultimately be transcended in order to attain higher levels of consciousness or truth. — Apollodorus
A man traveling along a path came to a great expanse of water, rough and hazardous. The farther shore appeared safe and peaceful. The man looked for a boat or a bridge and found neither. But with effort he gathered grass, twigs and branches and tied them all together to create a makeshift raft. Relying on the raft to keep himself afloat, the man paddled with his hands and feet and reached the safety of the other shore.
Now, what would he do with his makeshift raft? Would he carry it along with him or leave it behind? He would leave it, the Buddha said. The Buddha explained that the dharma is like a raft. It is useful for crossing over, but not to be held onto. — The Parable of the Raft (paraphrase)
It’s the kind of thing for which hard proof is never possible. — Wayfarer
One point I want to call out in this regard, is that there is really nothing corresponding to 'enlightenment' in the Christian lexicon. — Wayfarer
You ought to consider why, in the early Christian era, many of the Greek-speaking fathers of the Church, for example Origen and Clement, who were thoroughly versed in Platonism, thought it nevertheless necessary to proclaim the truth of Christ. — Wayfarer
Christianity may have its own myths, but I think they are just as easy to debunk as those of the New Age movement. — Apollodorus
Rather a sweeping claim, don't you think? But as the OP is about 'enlightenment', I will return to that theme. — Wayfarer
Often I wake up from the body into myself, and since I come to be outside of other things and within myself, I have a vision of extraordinary beauty and I feel supremely confident that I belong to a higher realm, and having come to identity with the Divine, and being established in it I have come to that actuality above all the rest of the intelligible world (Ennead IV.8.1.1-11)
To this God, I also declare, I Porphyry, that in my sixty-eighth year I too was once admitted and I entered into Union (On the Life of Plotinus, 23).
Plato has called such an illumination “possession” because the illumination takes charge over the whole of those who are moved by it, and because it moves those who are illuminated out of their own activities into its own character … The soul that is hard and resistant and impassive to the divine illumination stands in opposition to the action of possession, since [this soul] belongs more to itself than to that which illuminates, and does not easily take an impression of the gift from that source. [Such a soul], possessed by all kinds of opinions and filled up with reasoning that is shifting and divorced from the divine, overshadows the divine inspiration, mixing with the impulses from this its own ways of life and activities. So it is necessary for this soul, which is going to be possessed, to have taken on beforehand both of these qualities together: to be both gentle and innocent, so that it may be entirely receptive and sympathetic towards divinity, but impassive and unreceptive towards all other things and unmixed with them … The awakening is an unsleeping effort of the soul and an unyielding activity and a turning back from the fall into becoming towards the divine (in Remp. 180.25-181.25).
Indian terms do not seem to derive from "light". They tend to be based on concepts like "cessation" and "liberation" or "release". "Liberation", "salvation", do occur in Western traditions. — Apollodorus
"Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} — Pabhassara Sutta - Luminous
The theory of divine illumination is generally conceived of as distinctively Christian, distinctively medieval, and distinctively Augustinian. There is some justification for this, of course, inasmuch as Christian medieval philosophers gave the theory serious and sustained discussion, and inasmuch as Augustine gave illumination a very prominent role in his theory of knowledge. Still, it is better to think of the theory in a wider context. Divine illumination played a prominent part in ancient Greek philosophy, in the later Greek commentary tradition, in neo-Platonism, and in medieval Islamic philosophy. Moreover, it was Christian medieval philosophers, near the end of the thirteenth century, who were ultimately responsible for decisively refuting the theory. I will suggest that we view this last development as the first great turning point in the history of cognitive theory.
Note that the author claims that the theory was 'decisively refuted' i.e. abandoned as part of Christian doctrine. I'm going to revisit that article to understand why. — Wayfarer
Every procession of illuminating light, proceeding from the Father, whilst visiting us as a gift of goodness, restores us again gradually as a unifying power and turns us to the oneness of our conducting Father and to a deifying simplicity ... The purpose, then, of Hierarchy is the assimilation and union, as far as attainable, with God – by perfecting its own followers as Divine images, mirrors most luminous and without flaw, receptive of the primal light and the supremely Divine ray, and devoutly filled with the entrusted radiance, and again spreading this radiance ungrudgingly to those after it ...
I think the article is not the only thing you will need to revisit. — Apollodorus
Here is an illuminating quote from Christian writings. — Apollodorus
Divine illumination in sense (b) has not been “refuted” or “abandoned” in Christianity. — Apollodorus
If some Buddhist texts refer to the mind as “luminous” it does not follow that the Indian terms “Nirvana” and “Moksha” are derived from a word denoting “light”. — Apollodorus
You will find precious little reference to it outside Orthodox Christianity and some specific mystical texts. It's practically non-existent in Protestant theology. — Wayfarer
... under the influence of Protestantism, Liberalism, Romanticism, Freemasonry, and Marxism, there was growing rebellion against tradition and a lot of intellectuals believed that they should start creating. i.e., inventing, their own religion or cult .... — Apollodorus
Contrary to what many think, theosis is not just a doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church, though it plays a more central role in the thought and practice of that tradition. Carl Mosser, in a paper arguing that Calvin’s theology includes a doctrine of theosis, observes that “no major Western theologian has ever repudiated the doctrine of deification.” Mosser alludes to others who have shown the presence of the doctrine in the thought of Protestants including Luther, Jonathan Edwards, Augustus Hopkins Strong, C. S. Lewis, and several evangelicals, as well as early Anglicanism and Methodism. The doctrine is also receiving increased attention from contemporary evangelicals ...
It’s certainly something I don’t usually associate with mainstream Christian philosophy. — Wayfarer
To many Americans, Buddhism is about attaining enlightenment, maybe even nirvana, through such peaceful methods as meditation and yoga. But in some parts of Asia, a more assertive, strident and militant Buddhism is emerging. In three countries where Buddhism is the majority faith, a form of religious nationalism has taken hold: in Sri Lanka, in Myanmar, in Thailand ….
By the way, I wasn't being "condescending" at all, I was just wondering whether as someone who has studied comparative religion, you really don’t know the difference between divine illumination as an explanation for cognitive processes and divine illumination as an activity leading to union of the soul with the divine, or you were just taking the mickey. That's all. — Apollodorus
It shows that some Westerners are more knowledgeable about Eastern traditions than about Western ones. — Apollodorus
I don't think this is about me being "well-read" at all. I think it is more a case of some people being intellectually lazy and in denial but still trying to lecture others .... — Apollodorus
If it is merely "sublimation" and the whole enterprise is deluded as to its provenance from the start, then what does that say about claims to be enlightened? — Janus
The greatness of a musical composition, the profundity of a musician's interpretations of Bach, Beethoven or whatever canonical composer you like, cannot be precisely determined.
There are critics who write about works and their qualities, and there are many other critics who have quite different ideas about what any critic has written, so no, not precisely determinable.
The same goes with spiritual questing; one person's guru is another's charlatan.I don't see how you can claim to be familiar with the world of spiritual self-cultivation and yet disagree with that.
hat’s an interesting article. I wonder how much of that re-focussing on theosis is a consequence of the emergence of similar strains of thought in alternative religious movements with their emphasis on union. It’s certainly something I don’t usually associate with mainstream Christian philosophy. — Wayfarer
Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/moro/7?lang=eng&id=p48#p48
It shows that some Westerners are more knowledgeable about Eastern traditions than about Western ones. — Apollodorus
And since we were talking about "Nirvana", here is another interesting perspective that I think should not be ignored:
To many Americans, Buddhism is about attaining enlightenment, maybe even nirvana, through such peaceful methods as meditation and yoga. But in some parts of Asia, a more assertive, strident and militant Buddhism is emerging. In three countries where Buddhism is the majority faith, a form of religious nationalism has taken hold: in Sri Lanka, in Myanmar, in Thailand ….
Nirvanaless: Asian Buddhism’s growing fundamentalist streak – Religion News Service — Apollodorus
I studied the non-technical essays of Sigmund Freud as an undergrad - Totem and Taboo, The Future of an Illusion, Civilization and its Discontents. This is more or less his view. — Wayfarer
I don't agree with it,
but I do agree that 'spirit' and 'spiritual' are rather threadbare terms. Maybe that reflects the poverty of current English lexicon on this respect.
I don't know how much of a difference there is ultimately. — Wayfarer
But the Christian Church brought that on itself. — Wayfarer
What Western converts see in it, is often very different to what it is for those for whom it is the native culture. — Wayfarer
And you [John the Baptist] my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace (Luke 1:76-79)
For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:6)
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts (2 Peter 1:19)
Rabbi said: Why use the Syrian language in the land of Israel? Either use the holy tongue or Greek! But is Greek philosophy forbidden? Behold Rab Judah declared that Samuel said in the name of Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel, There were a thousand pupils in my father's house; five hundred studied Torah and five hundred studied Greek wisdom ... (Babylonian Talmud, Sotah 49b)
For when the mind is commingled in the Good, that distinction which it formerly possessed is no longer known or seen; and, further, when there is in it One, no longer are there counted with it Two: for the time is appointed and destined to be when Two shall be no more; for it is evident that whatsoever is divided, is divided from One, but if division be removed, of necessity All will become One (Book of the Holy Hierotheos IV.21)
All the divine orders proceed from the one first principle of the whole, that Plato was accustomed to name the One and the Good, and they proceed also from the bi-formed causes which become manifest directly after this first principle, which Socrates in the Philebus has called Limit and Unlimited, and which other sages used to honour with other names …. So it is necessary for unification that both things pre-exist, namely the unitary transcendence of the monadic and demiurgic God, and the final turning back towards that One by the generative and dyadic cause. This is because the communion of the greater beings in one nature is completed in this manner: while the higher beings are established in themselves and in the ones more divine than themselves, the lesser beings give themselves to the powers of the higher ones (Proclus, in Remp. 133.20-134.25)
They also generally disparage and misrepresent Buddhism. — baker
Violence against Christians has been seen by Human Rights Watch as a tactic used by the right-wing Sangh Parivar organizations to encourage and exploit communal violence to meet their political ends. The acts of violence include arson of churches, conversion of Christians by force, physical violence, sexual assaults, murders, rapes, and destruction of Christian schools, colleges, and cemeteries … According to the All India Christian Council, there was an attack on Christians recorded every 40 hours in India in 2016. In a report by the Indian organization Persecution Relief, the crimes against Christians increased by 60% from 2016 to 2019 …
I think Baker enjoys being a contrarian just for the sake of it. I can't think of any other explanation for the absurd and cynical generalizations she comes up with. — Janus
I don't agree with it,
Why not? — baker
I think a first step in this direction is to not try too hard to see differences between Platonism and Christianity. If we leave external and superficial aspects aside, their deeper teachings show that there is more that unites the two traditions than divides them. — Apollodorus
I can see little justification for rejecting Western traditions in favor of reciting Pali suttas, chanting mantras, and walking around in a sari. — Apollodorus
The 'treasures of western culture' that you constantly refer to are never part of the educational curriculum in public schools, I guess you might encounter them in Catholic schools. — Wayfarer
The reason is the Occidental classical tradition you’re referring to is to all intents more remote from modernity than the Eastern schools which have maintained their relevancy and occupied the vacuum caused by their collapse. — Wayfarer
They can. This is the normative aspect of art theory. — baker
While I don't know how the art critics do it, they appear to be fully certain that it can be done, that it should be done, and that they are doing it. — baker
The difference of opinions about a work says nothing about the quality of said work. — baker
Someone being one person's guru and another's charlatan doesn't make that person a guru, or a charlatan. — baker
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