I don't think it would normally be held to be unreasonable for someone to argue that "the Jews should be exterminated" is an awful thing to say and so worshipping Hitler is an awful thing to do. — Isaac
To my mind, the above makes religious faith something like a symptom of trauma?
— fdrake
Spicy take indeed! That's both a horrifying and plausible thought. — Srap Tasmaner
OP, seeing as how religion is so complex and each individual’s religious experiences and belief system is so varied and we can’t fully understand them, wouldn’t it just make more sense to judge people by their actions? — laura ann
it looks like Banno wants to treat ‘Christian’ as the moral equivalent of ‘racist’ or ‘Nazi’, something we don’t have to put up with, something we might, for instance, add to the Site Guidelines as grounds for summary banishment. — Srap Tasmaner
My interest here is as to the extent to which Christians (and Muslims) ought be allowed at the table when ethical issues are discussed. Given their avowed admiration for evil, ought we trust their ethical judgement? — Banno
The interesting variation here is that the argument asks us not to consider the morality of such an evil god, but of those who consider him worthy of praise or worship. — Banno
...what attitude ought we rightly adopt to those who think an evil god admirable? — Banno
Isn't the main topic (assent to) neverending damnation?
It has been, and is, upheld by some.
And the topic has moral implications (whether upheld by one or billions). — jorndoe
Hence the title, which apparently a number of non-christians found offensive. — Banno
Allah the merciful
— Agent Smith
There is some ambiguity, though it seems eternal torment is the most common belief among Muslims. The Quran displays the usual contrast between (their versions of) heaven and hell.
Quran 4:13-14, 4:56-57 :fire: (graphic violence), 4:93, 4:122, 4:137, 4:168-169, 5:37, 5:72-73, 7:179, 18:105-106, 67:7 :fire:, ... — jorndoe
I was only there for seconds. It felt like an eternity. — Brazil nightclub fire survivor (2013)
One thing which makes me believe that religious people ought not to be judged so harshly, or given some leeway, for what they believe (especially if it doesn't translate much into practice)... — fdrake
Perhaps it does not reduce culpability for acting on horrible beliefs, or even for believing in them, but pragmatically it makes it somewhat understandable. Ergo, forms less of a mark on their character because they have a good excuse. — fdrake
I think when you hear the voice of God, or are guided somehow by the Holy Spirit, that you need not model this 'input' at all. It's God and you know it is. Anyhow, I want to say that, but the Deceiver is also known to whisper in people's ears... — Srap Tasmaner
I just want a more neutral framework for having this discussion. I'm not comfortable beginning from a commitment to religion being bullshit. That's what I personally think, but I don't go around, ahem, pontificating about how believers ought to modify their bullshit religions. — Srap Tasmaner
What I think the confusion is here is that the typical Christian knows about and agrees with the objectionable stuff in advance. Putting aside whether the objectionable thing is necessary for Christianity, do all Christians know it and agree? At least as to eternal damnation, Lewis thinks not and calls the conversation around it the "neglected argument." — Ennui Elucidator
For me, one of the most interesting parts of the Lewis article is not the argument itself, but the reminder of how 'hidden' it is. Arguments about whether God exists are two a penny, the misdoings of the Christian Church are well known, but what's less often accepted is the simple fact that we accept (even venerate in our political leaders), adherence to a religion which is fundamentally flawed. God does some abominable things in the bible - no doubt about that. — Isaac
we need an historical understanding of religion, not a metaphysical one. — Isaac
I think something important to distinguish here is 'judging' as in being judgemental (acting harshly, ostracism...), and being free to interrogate a belief (including even the morality of it). I realise it might sound like the cliché of an self-distancing academic, but I think there's a difference. — Isaac
I agree entirely with the sentiment, but the danger is the unfair treatment of those no less traumatised, but whose trauma lead them to a different, less well-labelled moral failing. I don't think 'Christian' is a very useful label for this, we should be aware all the time that people which are unduly touchy about having their beliefs interrogated may well be using them as crutches for surviving trauma. This is, in the main, my reason for the distinction above. — Isaac
Something is definitely found wanting in the believer due to their belief, here. — fdrake
this definiteness assumes that the believer can articulate the nuances of their own beliefs in a way that makes them coherent and understandable to the unbeliever. Even competent philosophers are incapable of articulating their beliefs so unambiguously. — unenlightened
Let me pronounce a thread heresy: everlasting =/= eternal.
If one supposes that the temporal world is created form 'outside', then one can reasonably imagine that it has a purpose. Humans are inclined to make themselves central to such a purpose, and being human myself, I don't have a major problem with that idea. So the Christian understanding is usually not one of reincarnation, but a one time chance to form a moral being through time. Death completes the process of moral formation, and the moral being is 'solidified' into a realm outside time and space, as an eternal being.
So if that is how things stand, it is necessarily the case without time, that whatever one has made of one's life for good or ill in this world is what one is stuck with - timelessly, eternally. Hell is being Hitler, or being unenlightened, with no more chance of reformation or redemption. It's not everlasting, because lasting is what time does, and there is no time. "It is what it is." "I am what I yam." "Before Abraham was, I Am." — unenlightened
without time, that whatever one has made of one's life for good or ill in this world is what one is stuck with — unenlightened
when someone says 'God is love', they've thereby rendered it very insensible to treat their beliefs like a system of statements with an underlying logic. — fdrake
“Hidden” from whom? — Srap Tasmaner
I know it’s their Holy Book and all, but if you tried this approach on someone of the caliber of, I don’t know, Niebuhr or Tillich or even C. S. Lewis, to say nothing of Kierkegaard or Aquinas, do you really think this would carry the day so easily? — Srap Tasmaner
All of which might just be me saying that you can’t have the latter without bothering with the former. — Srap Tasmaner
if the pastor says, we don’t spend a lot of time talking about hell here, we focus on helping our parishioners and our community, then we pronounce them not real Christians. It’s lazy (which is my complaint), but it’s probably some other unsavory things too. — Srap Tasmaner
I think the point made in the article in the OP (and argued by Banno) is closer to judging Christians though. Namely because once their beliefs are interrogated, it is arguably a sensible decision to take their ethical intuitions and reasoning abilities with, at best, a large pinch of salt. Something is definitely found wanting in the believer due to their belief, here. — fdrake
I don't understand this. What is the unfair treatment and the less well labelled moral failing? — fdrake
You need to learn to think for yourself and not outsource your moral choices to people you think are "great". — Baden
If we say of Christians "we ought tread carefully, their belief may be something of a crutch" then we're treating them a care we're not extending to say, UFO enthusiasts, or Qanon cultists whose beliefs may also be crutches to cope with some past trauma. — Isaac
Kids need your love most when they deserve it least. — Erma Bombeck
it's more like a way of life than a logical structure. — fdrake
What relationship do you see this as having to the thread's argument that belief in Hell is a mark on their character or moral judgement? What application of a moral Black Spot does it carry? — fdrake
this religion which hasn't even quite sorted out yet how their main man isn't actually evil — Isaac
Why the protected status, why the concern for Christians being morally judged? — Isaac
People believe it's edicts for cultural reasons, it's not metaphysically compelling. — Isaac
Way out of my league here, but maybe one could imagine the jealous God of the Old Testament as a different sort of thing altogether, a god that can kick the ass of every other god, our guy, not necessarily the principle of goodness — Srap Tasmaner
Jumping in midstream here, so if what I say misses the point, ignore me. — Hanover
If you begin with the notion that the text of the OT isn't meant literally and that it is meant as a guide to ethical behavior and a meaningful life, I don't think you'll be burdened by any particular passage. — Hanover
It's tricky because the matter of what's moral is something we all have a legitimate stake in - and so becomes something I think it's fair to interrogate. But the consequence of concluding 'no it isn't' is judgemental in that first sense. I honestly don't see an easy way out, but if something seems immoral, my gut feeling is that our legitimate interest in that question, as a community, trumps any concerns about the consequences of the discussion. We have to have some way of being part of that discussion. — Isaac
Yes. The mentalist approach is upside-down. Banno's belief analysis is incomplete; "I believe in justice." does not mean that I believe justice is real, or prevails, or is even possible. It is a commitment. Action flows from the commitment, and belief summarises action rather than guides it. — unenlightened
The OT God is considered by all contemporary traditions as monotheistic... — Hanover
Exodus 6:2-3And God said to Moses, “I am Yahweh—‘the LORD.’ I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’—but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them.
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