The qualities you mention don't constitute a basis for the quality of art. — Raymond
Says you. — T Clark
Off course. But you say also. — Raymond
I just tossed that list characteristics out off the top of my head based on the kind of things I value and that get my attention. — T Clark
Your standard of art is tougher than mine. I think you're making it more highfalutin than it needs to be. I think it makes sense to say that art is anything that someone presents for aesthetic judgement. Then we get to decide if it's good art or not. For me, that judgement is based on what I experience when I look at it. — T Clark
What constitutes good art, good music, good literature, good landscaping, good architecture, good sculpture, good... whatever is determined by the votes of everyone interested in the matter.
— Bitter Crank
I think that's an unsatisfactory answer. I'm not sure how much better I can do, but I'm going to try. — T Clark
he people he froze alive belonged to an elite group of people only interested in propagating their own image in time, just like R himself. R sold his skills to the elite who used him as a camera only. R was rich and asked for. History made him famous because history needs famous figures. People need them. Put them in a museum or at Madame Tussauds. Big deal. — Raymond
Or perhaps to put in another way, just why did your philosophy tutor had that kind of dismissing attitude in the subject and say "Aesthetics is a non-subject, it doesn't matter - it's just personal taste. Next."? — ssu
I don't think an interpretation of an artist's or subject's motivations tell us anything about whether the work is any good or not. — Tom Storm
art forms are born, they live, and they die. Poetry is dead. The novel is dying. Music is dying, actually. — Noble Dust
I don't buy this. You say poetry is dead but that, if it's true, just means that there is a shortage of good new poetry. — T Clark
I think it's equally true that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and that there are aesthetic standards within disciplines. — Noble Dust
There is always disagreement even amongst those qualified to participate in this organic process. But inevitably, standards get set; some bits of milk rise to the top, and some get skimmed off. I'm of the believe that, in general, this process works pretty organically and well enough, but of course, some scum rises to the top, and some cream get's discarded. — Noble Dust
Anyway, a lot written. Simply wanting to exchange views as best I can. I think most of us sense that the standards for good art are nowadays more often than not missing in some way: thereby evidencing that there are such a thing as standards for good art to begin with. — javra
For me a key question isn't merely whether the art is any good but what the consumers of that art are getting out it. — Tom Storm
Maybe mediocre art provides transcendence for mediocre people? :razz: — Tom Storm
And why is that, actually?If you go to orchestra concerts, choral performances, etc., you'll notice a lot of older people there, and not too many young. The writing on the wall is not hard to understand. — Bitter Crank
Like a food that doesn’t taste good to me, I’ll be honest in my own aesthetic truths in regard to art pieces (without intending to demean others for their contrasting affinities; a live and let live mentality, at least as an ideal) … Otherwise nonauthenticity results (saying one sees something to be in a way one does not see it to be) - thereby leading to the emperor’s new clothes statements I previously gave in relation to much, but not all, of modern art. — javra
And why is that, actually? — ssu
That it's something "old" that we can disregard, that is politically incorrect? Pop music or some other "not-western" music is profoundly better? — ssu
Well, if people are so critical of their own Western culture, what do you think will happen? — ssu
Let's get one thing straight: Classical music (and classical Western art) aren't goddam capitalist, it isn't something for only the rich for starters, so don't be against it! Why wouldn't we like the music of our own heritage? — ssu
There is something more than personal opinion and public acclaim that makes good art. There's artistic vision, truth, technical mastery, surprise, emotional insight, playfulness, complexity, narrative, simplicity, clarity, idiosyncrasy, depth, history, humor, community.... and on and on. I don't know how to put all that together. — T Clark
I've set myself a task. I'm going to spend some time looking back over things I thought were good recently - a couple of books, something I ate, maybe "Casablanca", my favorite Christmas tree ornament, some silver plate forks and spoons I love. — T Clark
I'd really like to hear a few choice navigation points from a phenomenological approach to artistic value. — Tom Storm
Wonderful, bleak, lovely, tedious, beautiful, unrelenting
Six stars. Eleven stars. 432 stars. Tedious and bleak and beautiful. Funny and moving. Wonderfully written and very, very, very slow. Then suddenly, disorientingly sensual. Gormenghast the castle – miles long; dank, moldy, full of hundreds or thousands of unused rooms packed with useless and peculiar things. A tower where the death owls live. A giant dead tree with painted roots growing out the side of the castle. Lives ruled by inflexible, all-encompassing, oppressive, and unrelenting tradition. Gormenghast the land – always raining, too hot or too cold. Gormenghast the mountain – the peak always hidden by clouds.
The people - Lord Sepulchrave, 76th Earl of Groan, Countess Gertrude, the wonderful, pitiful twins Ladies Cora and Clarice Groan, Mr. Flay, Dr. and Irma Prunesquallor, Swelter, Nannie Slagg, Sourdust, Barquentine, Keda, Rottcodd, Pentecost, The Poet. The Grey Scrubbers. The Mud Dwellers who live outside the castle and spend all their time making beautiful carvings, most of which will be burned. The best of which will be placed in a museum that no one visits. And stuborn, 15-year-old, clumsy, and maybe doomed Lady Fuchia, whom I love with all my heart. And nasty, scheming, capable, admirable, and maybe evil Steerpike. And 1 1/2 year old Titus – 77th Earl of Groan. Everyone; almost everyone; odd, eccentric, and unhappy.
The plot doesn’t matter – for what it's worth, there is Titus' birth, scheming, betrayal, murder, suicide, a deadly knife fight, bodies eaten by owls, endless ceremonies, drunken revelry, and a toddler standing alone on a raft in the middle of a lake in the rain. The writing, the place, and the people do matter. The words grabbed me by the neck and forced me through the slowest, hardest sections. It felt like the hood of my jacket had gotten caught in a subway door and I was being dragged down the platform. I love this book. — T Clark
Nice work TC. These are the kinds of reviews I appreciate because there is something in it for me as a potential consumer, namely a clear line for assessment. And you have a light, humorous touch. As someone who has written for newspapers and magazines (a second job) for years, it still often surprises me how hard it can be to say something useful and say it clearly. — Tom Storm
the standard by which the quality of art should be judged is based on the experience of the audience members? — T Clark
Even if this is correct, I can't think of a better approach or theme for an artist. — Tom Storm
I don't think an interpretation of an artist's or subject's motivations tell us anything about whether the work is any good or not. :gasp: Some of my favourite artists were probably arseholes — Tom Storm
I've just started reading "The Principles of Art" by R.G. Collingwood. I came across some historical information that I found interesting and thought others would be interested too. I think it gives perspective on some of the issues we've discussed in this thread. — T Clark
I provide these as evidence that I've tried, and I think mostly succeeded, to be clear that my judgements are based on my personal experience of art. You, on the other hand, present your judgements as dogmatic truth — T Clark
Why shouldn't I present them as dogmatic truth. I don't force anyone to follow my dogma. If people lay value in other dogmas it's up to them. You present your dogma as personal experience. — Raymond
I don't know if you looked at the post I put in on Collingwood's discussion of art vs. craft. If you did, I'd be interested in hearing your response. It opened my eyes a bit and forced me to back up and put our discussion in perspective, which I think was Collingwood's intent. — T Clark
These are items that challenge my characterization of art as something that doesn't mean anything. — T Clark
I have generally drawn a distinction between craft and art. Craft being useful items of daily living that often have a working class or tribal origin. And art as being non-useful objects, generally created for an aesthetic experience not use. — Tom Storm
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