You need to get your information from a Muslim scholar. Otherwise you're dealing in horseshit. — Mongrel
That's not what Muslim friends tell me and seems a bit weird a claim from a non-Muslim to begin with. — Benkei
Can we not read and think for ourselves? — Benkei
The interpretation I favour is of edip yuksel who is a reformist and the Al Islam interpretation is based on the teachings of mirza ghulam ahmad — Benkei
Neither do most Muslims. You just referenced the founder of the Ahmadiyya sect. Most Muslims do not consider the Ahmadis to be true Muslims, and it is illegal to be one in many Islamic countries. — Thorongil
That's fine. I think that's a bit the point that there isn't an accurate representation to be had just like it isn't possible for the Bible. — Benkei
Obviously no Muslim could say there is no accurate representation of Islam. You're treating it like a cute little exhibit in a museum. It's a living worldview that's been through mangling and future shock. The father of your Muslim friends feels sadness when he looks at his daughters because he knows he's watching his heritage die. Loss and defeat. — Mongrel
I see. Then it is a good thing that you have such an illuminating beacon into the heart of men. Perhaps you prowl the streets of your hometown with a lantern in the manner of Diogenes, looking for a truly non-racist man, only to search in vain. How sad.Precisely. I think that if a person has an inner struggle with that kind of racism, rational examination of the question can become impossible. Anytime the issue comes up, a reflexive "I'M NOT RACIST!" will appear. Maybe clothed in more sophisticated language. — Mongrel
I don't like any religion by the way and think the institutionalisation of religious experiences is the worst social construct invented so far. It is and should always have been a personal experience of the divine. — Benkei
This claim is often made by Christian apologists, but never credibly substantiated. The arguments made for it are usually circular - eg all the scientists were Christians, or literacy was centred in the Church - therefore without Christianity there would have been no scientists and little literacy.Without Christianity's institutionalization in Western society, Western civilization would never have gotten off of its feet. — Heister Eggcart
This claim is often made by Christian apologists, but never credibly substantiated. The arguments made for it are usually circular - eg all the scientists were Christians, or literacy was centred in the Church - therefore without Christianity there would have been no scientists and little literacy. — andrewk
It also doesn't gel with the observation that Chinese civilisation was more advanced than in the West until at least the late medieval period. — andrewk
I fully agree with Benkei's observation that religion can be a wonderful thing at a personal level, but terrible things happen when it becomes institutionalised. — andrewk
I'd go further and say that it is desirable for there to be some way for people to form spiritual communities to share their experiences and help one another. But I've yet to figure out how that can be done without power structures arising and the inevitable corruption that comes with that. — andrewk
Sometimes I think the Quakers might have it figured out, but I'm not even sure about that. No doubt somebody will be able to come up with an anecdote of terrible abuse of power within Quakerism. — andrewk
This claim is often made by Christian apologists, but never credibly substantiated. The arguments made for it are usually circular - eg all the scientists were Christians, or literacy was centred in the Church - therefore without Christianity there would have been no scientists and little literacy. — andrewk
Why?If you say that religion can be a "wonderful" thing on a personal level, you must also admit that institutionalized religion can (and has been) also a "wonderful" thing. — Heister Eggcart
How does that [book] amount to an argument that is relevant to anybody else? — andrewk
It would be good if you can point to where I said 'only the individual is real'. — andrewk
I have repeatedly said that the idea of 'Islam' as an entity or agent with which one can converse and do deals, is a chimera. It is individuals, not labels, that can be, and are needed as, partners in our liberal, social-democratic society. Forget the label and focus on the individuals and their beliefs — andrewk
As I've said so many times before, what matters is what people actually believe, not what beliefs we project on them based on a label. — andrewk
I think much of the public controversy about this topic arises from that word 'authentic'. It is typically assumed, without examination, that there is such a thing as 'authentic Islam'. There is no apparent reason to believe there is any such thing, just as there is no such thing as authentic Christianity or authentic Buddhism. Adherents of a particular sect, who have dogmatic tendencies, will insist that their sect's version of the relevant religion is the only authentic one, but very few people outside the sect believe them. — andrewk
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