Have a read of the SEP article you yourself cited, immediately after the piece you quote. It ends with: — Banno
It seems worth pointing out that there is not a lot that hangs on the word "propositional" in "propositional attitude". It's an historical term, coming form a time somewhat prior to the analytic criticism of proposition, and can be readily replaced by "statement" if one prefers. I'm using it because it is a standard term. — Banno
So a possible state of affairs is a suitable content for knowledge, for hope, for doubt, as well as for belief. — Banno
Have a read of the SEP article you yourself cited — Banno
"proper" — ZzzoneiroCosm
I think it is a subset that does not include all of the elements of the set in question. So {A,B} is a proper subset of {A,B,C}; but not a proper subset of {A.B}.
6m — Banno
Only thing is, if I ask you what the "what" is, in "what is apprehended in a statement", what is your answer? A proposition? Then the definition is circular. A possible state of affairs? then you've given me nothing that is not found in statements. — Banno
Statements are combinations of nouns and verbs and such like; Some statements are either true or false, and we can call these propositions. So, "The present King of France is bald" is a statement, but not a proposition.
"unicorns do not exist", — Banno
Then the belief exists before holding some string of scribbles as true, but you've only explained the truth value of the statement, not the belief.As a result of watching it happen, a cat and it's owner both believe that a mouse is behind a tree. Only the owner(assuming they are a competent language user) holds "a mouse is behind a tree" as true. Both have the belief about the events and situation, but only one holds the belief to be true, for the other simply does not have the capability to do so. — creativesoul
I think you're confusing the form the subject-predicate (proposition/statement) takes with the form the belief takes. Going back to what you said about beliefs being put into the form of a proposition, I explained that there is a temporal separation between the belief as it exists and the proposition as it exists, and that one is not the other. Instead one is the cause and one is the effect. Can you put into propositional form a belief that you don't have?What form does the subject-predicate take in the mind if not the form of scribbles and sounds?
— Harry Hindu
The form of images or memories of objects, sensations, emotions, feelings, and their relationships. — ZzzoneiroCosm
But you just said that the proposition (subject-predicate) has the form of images, sensations, emotions, feelings and their relationships. So if belief and proposition are the same thing, the belief has the form of images, sensations, emotions, feelings and their relationships. So if you are agreeing that words are a particular type of image (scribbles), then the cat can believe the mouse is behind the tree using some other type of imagery and sensations. Therefore, propositions are not useful in describing beliefs because beliefs can be in the form of imagery that is not in the form of a proposition (scribbles).I'm muddling through this and now think the word attitude is problematic and should be dropped.
Instead, in regard to belief, I might say: a belief has the form of a proposition: subject-predicate.
Nevermind the attitude. — ZzzoneiroCosm
I was asking you to see if you agree. It appears that you do - that beliefs take the form of many types of sensations, not just sensations of scribbles and the sounds of spoken words. And that scribbles and sounds refer to those other images and sensations that are not scribbles and sounds, but are images of it raining outside and of a mouse running behind a tree.What form does the subject-predicate take in the mind if not the form of scribbles and sounds?
— Harry Hindu
So I can believe it raining without using any words at all. I simply look out the window.
— Harry Hindu
This seems to be you answering your question. — ZzzoneiroCosm
Can you point to a subject-predicate in a language that you don't know? What do languages that you don't know look like and sound like? How does that change when you learn the language? Do the scribbles and sounds cease to be scribbles and sounds, or is it that you now know the rules to use those scribbles and sounds? — Harry Hindu
the belief exists before holding some string of scribbles as true — Harry Hindu
As you have shown, beliefs exist prior to putting them into propositional form, so what form do beliefs take before being placed in propositional form? — Harry Hindu
Does the cat believe that a mouse is behind the tree - without words? — Harry Hindu
In saying that the cat believes there is a mouse behind the tree, are you not implying that the cat's belief is true and not that some scribbles are true? If so, then words are not necessary for describing beliefs. — Harry Hindu
I think the temporal sequence of holding a belief and then putting it in propositional form needs to be taken into account because people in this thread keep talking about what forms beliefs can be put into when the thread is about what form beliefs are prior to, or independent of, the forms it can be put into. — Harry Hindu
...i have a belief when the mouse runs behind the tree and can confirm my belief by looking behind the tree - no propositions needed. — Harry Hindu
To talk in terms of intension (I think this is the proper spelling) just is to talk in terms of being about or of something. For me terminology is not so important as what's being said. — Janus
Jack also believed that that stopped clock was working, but clearly did not believe that "the stopped clock is working" is true. — creativesoul
But you just said that the proposition (subject-predicate) has the form of images, sensations, emotions, feelings and their relationships. — Harry Hindu
A cat can believe that a mouse is behind the tree, and go look for the mouse, but they are looking for the mouse, not looking to check and see if their belief about the mouse is true. — creativesoul
Are you saying that Jack did not believe that a stopped clock was working? — creativesoul
Are you saying that Jack did not believe that a stopped clock was working?
— creativesoul
I see what you're saying... — ZzzoneiroCosm
Do you see that I've just negated the notion of Jack's belief being equivalent to Jack's attitude towards that belief, when that belief is put into propositional form? — creativesoul
Would you like to see the basic ontological arguments/framework grounding the claims regarding language less belief? — creativesoul
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