This is alot of writing to ask how Israel can be safe without engaging in aparthied and ethnic cleansing.

In any case the question of 'defense' is a non-sequitur. Israel is an agressor, and until that agression is addressed it is entirely true that people need to STFU about 'security'.

I don't pretend to any special knowledge of these events. I do some online looking and i remember, more or less, the news of the time. And there is one thing consistent: The wars - let's call them wars because that is what they are - are started by the Palestinians. — tim wood

That's patently false. Cease fires have been broken more often by the IDF than the Palestinians. And we all know where it started. It was Begin himself who boasted there was not an Israeli village that wasn't build on an Arab ruin. Ruins caused by the indiscriminate massacre of Jewish Israelis in 1948. The Jewish Israeli historian Illan Pappe considered it a campaign of ethnic cleansing. All for the purpose of maximising Zionist objectives to conquer as much of Palestine as possible - a lot beyond what was mandated under the UN resolution.

Both the land grabs in 1948 and 1967 are prime examples of aggression and war crimes terrible. And while the Arabs and Palestinians certainly weren't innocent in 1948 the number of innocent victims targeted by the Arab nations and Israel shows a clear difference, with Israel Zionist elites already showing it's true colours in 1948. After 1967 the balance of power in the region had permanently shifted in favour of Israel, or actually before that, 1967 simply was the proof in the pudding.

What is not complicated about the history is that Israel stole land twice and continues to do so through its colonialist settler program, evictions, apartheid rule and stranglehold "occupation". What is not complicated is that there are clear oppressors and oppressed. What is not complicated is that Israeli war crimes far outstrip anything the Arabs and Palestinians have committed combined. What is not complicated, therefore, is having moral clarity as to who deserves our support and who doesn't.

The only reason people think this is complicated is because of misguided guilt, pesonal loyalties or general lack of being adequately informed - particularly if they can't go beyond MSM reports.

Ruins caused by the indiscriminate massacre of Jewish Israelis in 1948. — Benkei

You mean Palestinians?

The only reason people think this is complicated is because of misguided guilt, pesonal loyalties or general lack of being adequately informed - particularly if they can't go beyond MSM reports. — Benkei

But shouldn't we accept "that regional powers project a sphere of influence in which you cannot fuck around without consequences"? Isn't Palestine, West Bank, Gaza, in Israel's sphere of influence?

It is a regional power, you know. :roll:

Israel is an agressor — StreetlightX

Since 180 is not participating it probably makes little sense to focus on what he said and my response thereto, nevertheless, the demand was not for Israel to stop being an aggressor, but to stop being an oppressor. Regardless, “ethnic cleansing” is clearly not an option just as collective punishment is not an option. If you acknowledge that Israel does have an interest in security and you seriously consider how to balance that interest against Palestine’s interest in not being oppressed, you are in the ball game. It would also be great if you have reasonable definitions/criteria around those points, but if you agree that demanding that Israel imperil it’s ability to defend itself is a non-starter, then we are on the verge of a meaningful conversation.

States are not individuals. The circumstances in which states can use violence legitimately (in ordinary discourse) is fundamentally different than when individuals can. We cannot look to institutions to mediate the boundaries of those circumstances. Even ideas like “aggressor” are unhelpful in evaluating such conduct. There are simply interests and populations negotiating those interests. Rights theory is swell and all, but at some point you have to stop denying the obviousness of the fact that populations disagree about what those rights are and the “right” theory is merely the one that is presently enforced.

For historical perspective, in about 1890 the US overthrew Hawaii and shortly thereafter claimed all of its land. Hawaii was made a state in 1959, some 70 years later. Israel declared independence in 1948. We are about 70 years later. The US were occupiers, colonizers, aggressors, exploiters, etc. in an undeniable way. Is Hawaii presently occupied by the US and would Hawaiins presently be justified indiscriminately killing people in Hawaii until such time as the US stops “oppressing” it?

I mean I hear what you're saying, but why would they stop sending aid so that another country will just take their place and send aid in the U.S's stead?

Both the land grabs in 1948 and 1967 are prime examples of aggression and war crimes terrible. — Benkei

There is an easy and simple solution that ought to appeal to all of those who feel the Israelis are just a bunch of expletives-of-the-moment land-grabbers. Return to them what was theirs - all of it. Hmm. And where was that taken away from them, and what was taken? And under what circumstances?

What is not complicated, therefore, is having moral clarity as to who deserves our support and who doesn't. — Benkei

Sure, one can have moral clarity if one has an impoverished notion of morality. Israel can do things that deserve our support and things that don’t deserve our support. The same is true of the Palestinians. Narrowing the only relevant concern around what we (or anyone else) support to whether Israel oppresses the Palestinians makes for a nice soundbite, but poor analysis. Yes - Israel did/does bad things. At the same time, “… far outstrip anything the Arabs and Palestinians have committed combined” is both untrue and not relevant. Syria, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, the U.A.E, etc. have each committed atrocities since 1945 that when combined far exceed anything that the Israelis have done, but for some reason get a pass when it comes to discussing Israel. Their horrors are merely forgotten because Israel is big bad meanie and Palestinians are just oppressed victims with no agency and no responsibility for themselves given the meanie.

Palestinians “deserve” “our” support the same as any other people, including the Israelis. Bad behavior does not. The Palestinians themselves do horrible things to one another and have laws/systems that should be offensive to anyone paying attention - do they deserve support in that? It may come as a shock, but Palestinians exist outside of their interaction with Israel. Indeed, Palestinians even oppress people.

Nuance isn’t too much to ask for, Benkei. Bending over backwards to make Israel sound like the worst actor in the middle east/arab world is laughable. Yes, they are shits when it comes to the Palestinians, but let’s be serious. If you need a simple example or two, let’s start with female genital mutilation and rapes in Egypt, Sudan, and Somalia since 1948. If you need a less pervasive and ongoing problem than abuses of women, how about we consider Darfur for a bit and you tell me how that was a trivial bit of war crimes that don’t come close to anything the Israeli’s have done since the start of the 21 century.

The Arabs are no angels. You don’t have to be a good person to “deserve” fair treatment. Palestinians can be bad and be victims of Israel’s bad conduct. At the same time, Israel can do good things (you know, like develop medicine, medical procedures, medical technology, technology generally, advance science, agriculture, expand the rights of women, permit religious pluralism, etc.) while doing bad stuff to the Palestinians. It isn’t so clear how we support the Palestinians and BDS the Israelis without encouraging the Palestinians in their bad conduct and hampering Israel’s ability to do the good things.

And just because women, who are so often utterly ignored in any conversation about oppression, deserve yet another shoutout in a context in which the population of the Gaza Strip has approximately doubled since 2000 and more than 50% of Gazans are currently under the age of 18 despite Israel’s occupation, marital rape is explicitly not a crime.

At what point do we question the advocacy of carte blanche support for a culture that would otherwise be detestable if not for Israel being an oppressor? Yes, advocate for human rights (or whatever you want to call it), but stop sticking your head in the sand.

but at some point you have to stop denying the obviousness of the fact that populations disagree about what those rights are and the “right” theory is merely the one that is presently enforced. — Ennui Elucidator

I don't particularly care about this kind of blather. I just think it would be nice if Israel stopped kidnapping children, destroying olive groves, bulldozing houses, engaging in wonton torture - that kind of thing. If you want to stratify this into some kind of warble about 'interests' you are welcome to, but I also couldn't give a shit. Nor, as far as I can tell, do the Palestinian subjects of Israeli meted suffering.

Condition aid to Israel based on withdrawal from the Occupied Territories.

As they go on fulfilling promises, aid may be given. If not, it can be reduced or taken away.

Syria, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, the U.A.E, etc. have each committed atrocities since 1945 that when combined far exceed anything that the Israelis have done, but for some reason get a pass when it comes to discussing Israel. — Ennui Elucidator

Please provide the numbers on how many atrocities were perpetrated against Israelis by those states and resulted in how many Israeli deaths. I'll wait while you get acquainted with the history of the area.

I thought you were more intelligent than this. There's a difference between supporting a murderous regime and provoking a regime into an international war.

If you want to stratify this into some kind of warble about 'interests' you are welcome to — StreetlightX

Where is that irony meter Seppo was using? This is a philosophy forum. Discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict from a philosophical POV (informed by metaethics, ethics, etc.) in a critical way shouldn’t be objectionable. And yes, we agree, Israel shouldn’t do those sorts of things.

If there is a Palestinian subject of meted suffering on here that would like to offer their view point on whether Israel’s conduct is subject to philosophical analysis, I am glad to hear them out. For my part, I have heard them out in other contexts and have advocated for a secular single state with peace on earth and equal treatment under the law (including reparations). But I recognize I am an outlier in wishing everyone to be reasonable, stop killing one another, and establish a government largely based on the contemporary best practice of a constitutional, western, liberal, secular representative-democracy with related cultural practices of inclusion, non-discriminaiton, accessibility, etc.

Israel stop being assholes! = good.
Israel ignore your own interests and allow the destruction of your government and slaughter of your people before you can respond to rocket fire and fire balloons! = bad

It is that simple. No stratification required.

You may have missed it, but no one has come to the aid of Israel since its independence when attacked. The only reason it hasn’t been attacked again appears to be related to its “undisclosed” nuclear program. The only method the foreign state aggressors have to do harm without Israel lighting them on fire is through the funding/support of non-state actors. Sadly, those foreign governments have decided that the Palestinians and their suffering is an acceptable way to continue their efforts to eradicate Israel from the middle east. Any relations with Israel in the region are predicated upon a particular nation coming to terms with Israel not going away, a reality which so far 5(?) middle eastern countries (states belonging to the Arab League) have accepted. Even “liberated” Iraq doesn’t recognize Israel.

There is an easy and simple solution that ought to appeal to all of those who feel the Israelis are just a bunch of expletives-of-the-moment land-grabbers. Return to them what was theirs - all of it. Hmm. And where was that taken away from them, and what was taken? And under what circumstances? — tim wood

As if right wing political Zionism cares one way or another about those reparations. It's also an idiotic argument since there's absolutely no moral argument to be made that because Jews got shafted in Europe they therefore are free to shaft Palestinians. Even so, reparations have and continue to be paid even by countries that were innocent of the crimes committed by the Germans. So I also, in fact, have no clue what you're talking about. There's an interesting book on this holocaust industry as well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_Industry

Please provide the numbers on how many atrocities were perpetrated against Israelis by those states and resulted in how many Israeli deaths. — Benkei

I didn’t say that the atrocities were perpetrated by them against Israel, I said they have done them and are not collectively responsible for less bad acts than Israel. The only country on that list that comes close to not having done more bad acts than Israel might be Palestine, and that is by virtue of its population size. I imagine if you counted the violations of human rights in the occupied territories by Palestinians, you might find that they are equal to Israel, but I won’t make that promise.

As to the Israel/Palestine conflict, and with no consideration of any other factor besides damage inflicted on populations/property, Israel undeniably has caused more damage and killed more people. What does that have to do with whether we support Israel or Palestine? Is it one factor in the analysis or the only? Are there reasons why we should support Israel despite that? Or not support Hamas/the Palestinian Authority? Or support both of them in their respective domains?

Increasingly you seem to have no idea what you are talking about — Ennui Elucidator

Pot, meet kettle.

It would be swell if, on a philosophy forum, you could do some. — Ennui Elucidator

You as well. Not really appropriate to demand serious philosophical replies when all you've posted is silly inanity and disingenuous apologia for the murderous actions of an apartheid rightwing government and its military.

It's also an idiotic argument since there's absolutely no moral argument to be made that because Jews got shafted in Europe they therefore are free to shaft Palestinians. — Benkei

:up:

Exactly. If you steal someone's house and murder their family, you don't get to plead self-defense or whine about your "legitimate interests" when they try to defend themselves (even if in so doing they themselves cross various moral lines).

You as well. Not really appropriate to demand serious philosophical replies when all you've posted is silly inanity and disingenuous apologia for the murderous actions of an apartheid rightwing government and its military. — Seppo

Your reading is sub-par. I, personally, am anti-zionist and I cannot understand how a religious/ethnic state can claim it is morally defensible. I am not, and have not, even for a single second in this thread said “Israel was justified in doing X.” All of my replies have been aimed at the structure in which we perform our analysis of Israel’s behaviors. It is nice that you want me to say things I have not said, but I’d rather speak for myself.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks. Your writing and communication skills, evidently, are not up to par. I can only respond to what you've written; I'm not a mind reader.

It's also an idiotic argument since there's absolutely no moral argument to be made that because Jews got shafted in Europe they therefore are free to shaft Palestinians. — Benkei

That wasn't the argument being made.

Oh, what was the argument then? Because your comment seemed totally irrelevant.

↪StreetlightX Exactly. If you steal someone's house and murder their family, you don't get to plead self-defense or whine about your "legitimate interests" when they try to defend themselves (even if in so doing they themselves cross various moral lines). — Seppo

Why do you start so strong and then fall into oblivion? Unless you were born in 1950 or earlier, you have ZERO responsibility for what happened in 1948 or 1967. If Gaza was sealed off because Israel yet again tore down tents/shacks, you might have a point about why Israeli’s shouldn’t complain when Gazans dig tunnels under their walls and slaughter Israeli families in their sleep. Israel doesn’t get to engage in collective punishment and neither do the Palestinians. When a 10 year old is blown up in the street, it doesn’t matter which side did it, whoever did it was wrong. Why is that so hard to understand?

This is a philosophy forum. Discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict from a philosophical POV (informed by metaethics, ethics, etc.) in a critical way shouldn’t be objectionable. — Ennui Elucidator

One of the nice things about philosophy is knowing when someone is hiding behind abstractions in order to distract from rather concrete issues. Like Israeli state sanctioned murder and land grabbing. "Philosophy" is not your excuse to change the subject. Philosophy, among other things, is why your bloviating can be pointed out for what it is.

Stop patting yourself on the back and checking what is in your pants. Go ahead and quote what I said that you take issue with and I will respond. You can even fairly summarize it. Pick any method you want to have a conversation on here that approximates a good faith reading of what I wrote and a response thereto and I am happy to engage.

to distract from rather concrete issues. Like Israeli state sanctioned murder and land grabbing. — StreetlightX

Again - Israel is wrong when it murders (definitionally) and wrong when it land grabs (definitionally). Israel is wrong when it blows up children and tells us that collateral damage is justifiable because the bad actors hide in population centers and that it shouldn’t be forced to risk its own soldiers in an invasion of Gaza to directly address the bad actors. Israel is wrong, wrong, wrong. Can I be any clearer? What issue would you like me to point at and say “Israel was wrong!”?

The only questions I have been trying to discuss are whether there is ever a time where oppression is justified and whether on oppressor must stop all forms of oppression before it can be critical of how the oppressed behave. Trying to turn that question into approval of specific conduct or Israel’s conduct generally is on you, not me. When done with the assessment, we might find that Israel has never justifiably oppressed anyone and that continued oppression is completely unjustifiable and that 180’s admonition to instantly stop the oppression is well considered.

Either have the conversation or don’t. Stop saying that considering Israel’s interests means approving of their actions.

The only questions I have been trying to discuss are whether there is ever a time where oppression is justified and whether on oppressor must stop all forms of oppression before it can be critical of how the oppressed behave. — Ennui Elucidator

Present crimes against humanity are not your intellectual plaything.

Or perhaps they are, but then your moral vacuity ought not be anyone else's problem.

I didn’t say that the atrocities were perpetrated by them against Israel, I said they have done them and are not collectively responsible for less bad acts than Israel. The only country on that list that comes close to not having done more bad acts than Israel might be Palestine, and that is by virtue of its population size. I imagine if you counted the violations of human rights in the occupied territories by Palestinians, you might find that they are equal to Israel, but I won’t make that promise. — Ennui Elucidator

Which is all irrelevant within the context of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and surrounding states. I thought that context clear from the post itself which talks about aggression and war crimes. Ius ad bellum and Ius in bello.

Put differently, if I have a fight with you, then the fact that you also beat your wife is of no interest to me.

What is not complicated is that there are clear oppressors and oppressed. What is not complicated is that Israeli war crimes far outstrip anything the Arabs and Palestinians have committed combined. What is not complicated, therefore, is having moral clarity as to who deserves our support and who doesn't. — Benkei

I thought that context clear from the post itself which talks about aggression and war crimes. — Benkei

The context was clear. Who we should support. If our support is predicated upon who has the least dirty hands, why does it matter where that dirt came from if the choice is binary? Who would you rather succeed as a nation Syria or Israel? If you have to support one or another, which do you support?

Clarity on what particular act is wrong is different than clarity on what that means in terms of your/our behavior. I was responding to your claim of desert, not your identification of unequal wrongs within the limited context of Israel/Palestine. The context of my response seems well summarized in this

It isn’t so clear how we support the Palestinians and BDS the Israelis without encouraging the Palestinians in their bad conduct and hampering Israel’s ability to do the good things. — Ennui Elucidator

Give support or not give support was the binary. Give Gaza food and non-military resources and give Israel military aid seems to be the situation on the ground.

Anyway, while apologists like Ennui are writing paragraphs about trying to change the subject, here are the 30 Palestinian home demolitions - self-demolished on pain on enormous fines - that took place in January in Jerusalem alone, because Israel is an apartheid state whose current state of existence is predicated on unlimited barbarism:



But I'm sure someone will whine about 'security' or somesuch. Or 'interests'.

Scum.