I don't pretend to any special knowledge of these events. I do some online looking and i remember, more or less, the news of the time. And there is one thing consistent: The wars - let's call them wars because that is what they are - are started by the Palestinians. — tim wood
You mean Palestinians?Ruins caused by the indiscriminate massacre of Jewish Israelis in 1948. — Benkei
But shouldn't we accept "that regional powers project a sphere of influence in which you cannot fuck around without consequences"? Isn't Palestine, West Bank, Gaza, in Israel's sphere of influence?The only reason people think this is complicated is because of misguided guilt, pesonal loyalties or general lack of being adequately informed - particularly if they can't go beyond MSM reports. — Benkei
Israel is an agressor — StreetlightX
Both the land grabs in 1948 and 1967 are prime examples of aggression and war crimes terrible. — Benkei
What is not complicated, therefore, is having moral clarity as to who deserves our support and who doesn't. — Benkei
but at some point you have to stop denying the obviousness of the fact that populations disagree about what those rights are and the “right” theory is merely the one that is presently enforced. — Ennui Elucidator
Syria, Iraq, Saudia Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, the U.A.E, etc. have each committed atrocities since 1945 that when combined far exceed anything that the Israelis have done, but for some reason get a pass when it comes to discussing Israel. — Ennui Elucidator
If you want to stratify this into some kind of warble about 'interests' you are welcome to — StreetlightX
There is an easy and simple solution that ought to appeal to all of those who feel the Israelis are just a bunch of expletives-of-the-moment land-grabbers. Return to them what was theirs - all of it. Hmm. And where was that taken away from them, and what was taken? And under what circumstances? — tim wood
Please provide the numbers on how many atrocities were perpetrated against Israelis by those states and resulted in how many Israeli deaths. — Benkei
Increasingly you seem to have no idea what you are talking about — Ennui Elucidator
It would be swell if, on a philosophy forum, you could do some. — Ennui Elucidator
It's also an idiotic argument since there's absolutely no moral argument to be made that because Jews got shafted in Europe they therefore are free to shaft Palestinians. — Benkei
You as well. Not really appropriate to demand serious philosophical replies when all you've posted is silly inanity and disingenuous apologia for the murderous actions of an apartheid rightwing government and its military. — Seppo
↪StreetlightX Exactly. If you steal someone's house and murder their family, you don't get to plead self-defense or whine about your "legitimate interests" when they try to defend themselves (even if in so doing they themselves cross various moral lines). — Seppo
This is a philosophy forum. Discussing the Israel/Palestine conflict from a philosophical POV (informed by metaethics, ethics, etc.) in a critical way shouldn’t be objectionable. — Ennui Elucidator
to distract from rather concrete issues. Like Israeli state sanctioned murder and land grabbing. — StreetlightX
The only questions I have been trying to discuss are whether there is ever a time where oppression is justified and whether on oppressor must stop all forms of oppression before it can be critical of how the oppressed behave. — Ennui Elucidator
I didn’t say that the atrocities were perpetrated by them against Israel, I said they have done them and are not collectively responsible for less bad acts than Israel. The only country on that list that comes close to not having done more bad acts than Israel might be Palestine, and that is by virtue of its population size. I imagine if you counted the violations of human rights in the occupied territories by Palestinians, you might find that they are equal to Israel, but I won’t make that promise. — Ennui Elucidator
What is not complicated is that there are clear oppressors and oppressed. What is not complicated is that Israeli war crimes far outstrip anything the Arabs and Palestinians have committed combined. What is not complicated, therefore, is having moral clarity as to who deserves our support and who doesn't. — Benkei
I thought that context clear from the post itself which talks about aggression and war crimes. — Benkei
It isn’t so clear how we support the Palestinians and BDS the Israelis without encouraging the Palestinians in their bad conduct and hampering Israel’s ability to do the good things. — Ennui Elucidator
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