https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/2/4/the-death-of-an-inconvenient-palestinian?sf159643480=1

Israeli 'interests', which anyone who wants to talk about Israeli apartheid is apparently obliged to have to discuss:

On his drive home, Asaad was stopped by Israeli soldiers at a “checkpoint” because he was a Palestinian. The Israeli soldiers had no cause or right to stop Asaad. They did because they had guns. Asaad insisted that he was not a troublemaker. He was, of course, telling the truth. He was an old man just trying to get home after a late night of playing cards with friends.

Predictably, the Israeli soldiers did not believe him because he was a Palestinian with no ID. So, they dragged Asaad from his car, blindfolded him, put a gag over his mouth and tied his hands tight with plastic zip ties. Then, Israeli soldiers marched Asaad – bound, gagged and blindfolded – to a nearby construction site and dumped him on the cold stone pavers. Two other Palestinians who had been stopped earlier because they were Palestinians were there, as well. They saw what the Israeli soldiers did to Asaad. Soon, Asaad was still. One Israeli soldier squatted to check on Asaad. The soldier got up, spoke to the other soldiers. They left. Quickly. Asaad was dead.

The Israeli soldiers would say later that they thought Asaad had dozed off on a chair. That was a lie. An autopsy revealed that Asaad had died of a “stress-induced heart attack” triggered by “violence”. He died alone. His head resting against stone pavers. Within minutes, a Palestinian doctor arrived. Asaad’s face was blue and his wrists were bruised. There was bleeding inside Asaad’s eyes. His clothes were caked in dirt. He tried breathing life into Asaad. It was no use. The doctor reckons that Asaad had stopped breathing 15 to 20 minutes before he reached him. Asaad’s foul death would be a scarcely noticed footnote amid the outrageous inventory of death and despair Palestinians have had to endure for generations because they are Palestinians if not for one detail: he was an American.

So yeah, let's talk about the things Israel is interested in, like ethnic cleansing and wonton murder. Let's use this opportunity to be 'critical' about the 'behaviour' of this man, daring to drive home past Israeli extra-judicial executors.

Abstractions are nothing more than colonial complicity. Calls to discuss those abstractions ought to be ridiculed and treated for the excremental apologia they are.

There's a difference between supporting a murderous regime and provoking a regime into an international war. — Benkei

So according to you only one is murderous? Actually there's an obvious similarity as both countries don't care a shit about international agreements, about the sovereignty of other countries and are totally fine with annexation of land from their neighboring countries. Because both absolutely think they have a right for it. They have a "sphere-of-influence" where they can use force as they want.

Do notice how their own maps (karta rossii) look like now. Do notice one peninsula in the west:


Or how in the other country a map in schoolbook looks like:


But for some reason, only one is murderous and aggressive while the other one, well, actually you don't care what happens inside it, you seem to think that it has a right to a sphere of influence and think it's just bullied/provoked by the West or something.

So yeah, let's talk about the things Israel is interested in, like ethnic cleansing and wonton murder. — StreetlightX

Thinking like this is beneath you. Not least of which because Israel has no independent interests aside from those which we grant it by convention. Some Israelis do bad things. Far too many Israelis support them in those bad things and turn a blind eye. Cruelty is cruelty. One need not fancy it up with talk of oppression and apartheid. Do some Israelis (and elected governments) speak in reprehensible terms? Yes. And they do so as a direct result of their oppression. But as you suggest, being oppressed is insufficient justification for doing awful things.

One could write horrible stories about the Palestinians. Would you call them out for apartheid? Ethnic cleansing? Is Hamas a terrotist organization worthy of international sanction and criminal prosecution? Is your criticism of them blunted merely because they are shitty at their jobs? (You know, can’t equalize the body count).

Yeah I hear you, but they would probably just seek out some other beneficiary who adhere to their terms. If there's anything I've learned thus far about this topic, it's that Israel calls the shots, not the U.S.

colonial complicity. — StreetlightX

Pathetic and rhetorical, much like the word “apartheid.” It adds nothing to the discussion and obscures the fact that Israel declared independence from everyone at its inception and was conceived as a reclaiming of ancestral land. You can disagree with the project, but you can’t change the facts. “Dhimmi” isn’t a modern invention and Arab nations are far more responsible for colonization and apartheid than a 70 year old state on nothing piece of land.

Israel does bad things. Misdescribing/miscontextualizing it doesn’t make it worse, it just makes you look prejudiced. Or maybe you want to claim that Israelis have some other state to go back to as they are driven into the sea.

These people are dumb as hell and not worth the time

And for anyone who cares even a little about the context for the relations between the Israelis, Palestinians, and Arab world, here is the PLO in its own words from 1967. I leave it to the reader to decide for itself whether Israelis avowed fear of destruction by the Palestinians is misplaced, unjustified, or unworthy of consideration when evaluating the ethics of Palestinians murdering non-combatants or Israel’s obsession with security.

. . .

Article 7: That there is a Palestinian community and that it has material, spiritual, and historical connection with Palestine are indisputable facts. It is a national duty to bring up individual Palestinians in an Arab revolutionary manner. All means of information and education must be adopted in order to acquaint the Palestinian with his country in the most profound manner, both spiritual and material, that is possible. He must be prepared for the armed struggle and ready to sacrifice his wealth and his life in order to win back his homeland and bring about its liberation. . .

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory. . .

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

. . .

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.

Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland. . .
— “ The Palestinian National Charter: Resolutions of the Palestine National Council July 1-17, 1968”

When a 10 year old is blown up in the street, it doesn’t matter which side did it, whoever did it was wrong. — Ennui Elucidator

This is a strawman, one I've explicitly denied a couple of times, and a good example of the sort of silly inanity I noted already. This sort of nonsense is why people aren't taking you seriously.

Go ahead and quote what I said that you take issue with and I will respond. — Ennui Elucidator

Yeah, I did that already.

Some Israelis do bad things. — Ennui Elucidator

When people criticize Israel's actions towards Palestine/Palestinian (as many are doing here) they are typically criticizing Israel as a political/military entity- criticizing Israel as a state that is engaging in various violations of human rights and international law... Not criticizing Israelis as a people. Maybe this explains your confusion about anti-Semitism.

Pathetic and rhetorical, much like the word “apartheid.” — Ennui Elucidator

Ah, see, I have a problem with actual apartheid, and not just the word apartheid. Your allergy to words rather than actions explains your continued attempts to change the conversation along the usual tired, propagandistic lines of 'what about Israel's security'???. Nah, gonna keep it on track and keep talking about how Israel kills random old Palestinian men - and children - on the street as a matter of systemic and encouraged course, thanks. Write your irrelevant paragraphs of obfuscarory shit, calling settler colonialism 'interests'. I will continue to call out Israel's ethnic cleansing. You're welcome to continue sanitizing crimes against humanity as 'interests'. Which, to be fair, is exactly the case as far as Israel currently stands.

It's very misleading. Putting a long story short, what Israel does, however horrible it is, does not bother the US much, rhetoric aside. Public Opinion is now pushing the US government to be more critical of Israel, and is having some effects. But case after case, the US calls the shots.

oops

This sort of nonsense is why people aren't taking you seriously. — Seppo

Maybe you should read the charter I posted and what 180 said regarding the ability of Israel (or anyone for that matter) to question the methods of the Palestinian. It is right there in the Palestinian charter from 1967 - armed resistance, no legitimate Israel state, absolute liberation as the only acceptable resolution, non-cooperating in resolving the situation in any other way, educating their children to fight to the death, etc. You might also note their plan to escalate into full warefare drawing in the Arab states who have a moral duty to liberate Palestine from the “the Zionist and imperialist presence.”

This is all old stuff, Seppo. There is zero new territory being covered in 180’s comments, the left’s adoption of the Palestinian position regarding their oppression, and the compete erasure of Israel’s legitimacy. You don’t have to take me seriously - the people doing the killing don’t give a rat’s ass what either of us post.

What you seem to miss is that at the root of the problem is this issue of what Jews are and whether they have/had a state. The Palestinian claim that they go back to their state was vapid in ‘67 and has only become more stupid since. Where does a third generation Israeli go?

The criticism is routinely not of the Israeli state as such (though state action is the target), but that the goals of the Israeli state are either a) illegitimate or b) reprehensible. Just take a look at StreetlightX’s latest comment where he yet again makes the claim that apartheid is inherent in the Zionist - I’m sorry, I meant Israeli - project. “ Israel kills random old Palestinian men - and children - on the street as a matter of systemic and encouraged course” He of course will jump up and down about the “current” Israeli posture rather than the historical one, but the only reason Israel wasn’t accused of apartheid in ‘67 is because the world hadn’t popularized the word yet.

The state of Israel exists. They are 6 million people or so people there that prefer that state to the Palestinian one. The Palestinians have vowed to restore Palestine and drive out the Zionists. In 70 years no middle ground has been found, but Israel will remain at eternal fault with no moral standing to question the resistance.

Before the oppressor (and his patrons/apologists) can legitimately criticize and condemn the oppressed for their means and methods of resistance, he must completely dismantle the entire state-apparatus of oppression now. Until then, the logic of oppression entails that there cannot be "innocents" in the oppressor's camp, especially in so far as the oppressor tactically discounts them – his own noncombatant civilians – as potentially "acceptable losses", that is, the necessary cost of maintaining his strategem of oppression. In order to survive, the oppressed must resist – always have and always will – by any means necessary. — 180 Proof

Israel's Apartheid Against Palestinians

Building on a growing body of work, Amnesty International has documented and analysed Israel’s institutionalized and systematic discrimination against Palestinians within the framework of the definition of apartheid under international law. This has aimed to determine whether discriminatory and exclusionary Israeli laws, policies and practices against Palestinians amount to apartheid as a violation of public international law, a serious human rights violation and a crime against humanity. It has done so by firstly determining Israel’s intent to oppress and dominate all Palestinians by establishing its hegemony across Israel and the OPT, including through means of demography, and maximizing resources for the benefit of its Jewish population at the expense of Palestinians. It has then analysed the laws, policies and practices which have, over time, come to constitute the main tools for establishing and maintaining this system, and which discriminate against and segregate Palestinians in Israel and the OPT today, as well as controlling Palestinian refugees’ right to return. It has conducted this analysis by examining the key components of this system of oppression and domination: territorial fragmentation; segregation and control through the denial of equal nationality and status, restrictions on movement, discriminatory family reunification laws, the use of military rule and restrictions on the right to political participation and popular resistance; dispossession of landand property; and the suppression of Palestinians’ human development and denial of their economic and social rights. Furthermore, it has documented specific inhuman and inhumane acts, serious human rights violations and crimes under international law, committed against the Palestinian population with the intent to maintain this system of oppression and domination.

Don't forget, while you're taking my name in vain, to quote my corroborations as well such as

[ ... ] Sharon and Arafat, for instance, had agreed on the term and need for the State of Israel to end the "occupation" (i.e. occupiers, by definition, are oppressors).[ ... ] — 180 Proof

(follow link @my handle) Ariel fuckin' Sharon's mea culpa, no? Hardly a leftwinger's "adoption of the Palestinian position". :sweat:

ninja'd ya :point: though, of course, bears repeating to apartheid apologists.

And what is truly, deeply ironic is that Hamas (as well as other muslim groups) take pride in having conquered Palestine and subjugated its non-Arab inhabitants. They see the Zionist as trying to undo the will of Allah. When did the Muslims/Arabs stop their oppression/occupation? When did they gain the moral high ground over the claims to Palestine?

… Article Eleven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Moslems, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

"Verily, this is a certain truth. Wherefore praise the name of thy Lord, the great Allah." (The Inevitable - verse 95).

…

Article Thirty-Two:

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. The alternative is loss of one's country, the dispersion of citizens, the spread of vice on earth and the destruction of religious values. Let every person know that he is responsible before Allah, for "the doer of the slightest good deed is rewarded in like, and the does of the slightest evil deed is also rewarded in like."

The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.

"..and we have put enmity and hatred between them, until the day of resurrection. So often as they shall kindle a fire of war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).
— “The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement”

Ariel fuckin' Sharon's mea culpa, no? Hardly a leftwinger's "adoption of the Palestinian position". :sweat: — 180 Proof

Amazing how you say that Israel can’t condemn the Palestinians for killing children and think you find moral ground by pointing to someone saying there is an occupation. I’ve never once denied the “occupation” or the oppression. It doesn’t make a lick of difference when discussing whether blowing up children is contemptible.

The left’s adoption of the position isn’t around the occupation, it is around whether Israel has any legitimacy despite it and the extent to which Israel must become defenseless to atone for it.

:mask:
The parallel is too stark to merely be, as some would have it, a bad analogy / false equivalence: Gaza City (intifada) ~ Warsaw Ghetto (uprising).

The left’s adoption of the position isn’t around the occupation, it is around whether Israel has any legitimacy despite it and the extent to which Israel must become defenseless to atone for it. — Ennui Elucidator

The reason for a Likud leader's agreement with the PLO that the need for the occupation / oppression to end is to maintain the long-term "legitimacy" of Israel. How can any state (of emergency) maintained by on-going ethnic cleansing, military atrocities & apartheid be "legitimate"?

The parallel is too stark to merely be, as some would have it, a bad analogy / false equivalence: Gaza City (intifada) ~ Warsaw Ghetto (uprising). — 180 Proof

Too stark? You mean that the PA and Egypt colluded against their Muslim siblings to starve the Gaza Strip to weaken Hamas and bring the region back under the PA’s control? Or how the Israeli’s aren’t preparing death camps and ovens for their bodies?

The tone deafness of the comparison is remarkable. The Zionist project as the modern Nazi, how convenient. Hitler had two legs… Sharon had two legs….. Connection?

The Palestinians and Isarelis are literally at war and despite Israel having taken the decisive advantage fifty years ago, they still provide essential services, support, jobs, etc. to the populations sworn to destroy them. The analogy to Nazis is willfully cruel and basically contemptible.

Yes, Palestinians are in a shitty circumstance and Israel does things to contribute to that. No, you can’t give Jordan, Egypt, and the Palestinians a pass for the way that they perpetuate it to political advantage in their fight against the Zionists. The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto didn’t have the luxury of conspiring with their friends to make their situation seem more dire so that the United Jewish League would send in the calvary, save them, and kill the Poles/Nazis who had done them dirty.

But again, absolutely none of this has anything to do with whether a) the Palestinians can be condemned for their methods and b) whether any level of oppression is morally tolerable. Your quoted binary that follows the PLO charter should tell you something.

Oooo no not the PLO charter!! Never mind Israeli everyday murder then.

Shut up with these stupid hasbara talking points.

One of the dangers of gross hyperbole is that you can end up tossing victory into your opponent's lap.

How can any state (of emergency) maintained by on-going ethnic cleansing, military atrocities & apartheid be "legitimate"? — 180 Proof

You keep hurling the accusations as if they are new or will somehow fall differently. The question isn’t “is ethnic cleansing” legitimate or are “military atrocities” OK, but whether, given the circumstance Israel finds itself in, must it give up all forms of oppression to be given your leave to say that the Sbarro bombing was wrong?

Put aside Israel’s criticism. Was the Sbarro bombing immoral? Worthy of criticism? Questionable? Tell me how you analyze the methods of the oppressed when a civilian establishment is deliberately targeted and children murdered.

Never mind Israeli everyday murder then. — StreetlightX

Of course it should be minded. And they should stop doing it absent compelling reason beyond vague handwaving towards the eternal imminent threat. Who has disagreed? Or said that Israel shouldn’t be criticized? How is questioning the legitimacy of the Palestinian method of resisting the occupation an excuse for Israel to be shits?

Ooh no not a terrorist incident 20 years ago!! Guess Israel has to do an apartheid now.

Because if your response to "Israel is comitting crimes against humanity" is "yes but security" then nothing you say deserves to be taken seriously and you are a propagandist who deserves nothing but scorn.

Ooh no not a terrorist incident 20 years ago!! Guess Israel has to do an apartheid now. — StreetlightX

Of course they don’t, nor is that a moral response to the bombing. Yet again, you conflate saying that the Palestinians did something wrong with saying that Israel is justified in doing any horrible thing. This convulsive “Israel is evil!!! Stop talking about ethics!” grows wearisome.

Let’s say it to gether one last time - Israel has done lots of bad things both currently and historically. Is “stopping all oppression immediately” an ethically required choice for Israel or are they permitted to do something else?

Is “stopping all oppression immediately” an ethically required choice — Ennui Elucidator

Yes. Next point.

Because if your response to "Israel is comitting crimes against humanity" is "yes but security" then nothing you say deserves to be taken seriously and you are a propagandist who deserves nothing but scorn. — StreetlightX

Go ahead and find where I said that. One quote. What crime against humanity (for whatever that means) did I say Israel gets to do? Collective punishment? Right out. Collateral damage? Ignoble. Unequal treatment under the law? Contemptible. Pick your crime against humanity and let’s see where I say “Yup, that is fine because SECURITY!!!…!!!…!!!”

Yes. Next point. — StreetlightX

Then you have removed yourself from the conversation of what Israel should do. That is a standard that cannot be met and isn’t even worthy of discussion. So long as you hold that standard and acknowledge that anyone that feels oppressed by you can kill you wherever they find you without moral guilt, I guess you at least aren’t a hypocrite. I strongly urge you to make yourself available to them as soon as possible with atonement in hand so that you can get on with judging other people in good conscience.