Of course it was a Roman practice. And of course it was reserved for criminals. It wouldn't have been reserved for law-abiding citizens, would it? But "criminals" included those that rebelled against Roman rule. It doesn't make sense for Jews to treat one of their own as a "despicable criminal" just because he was crucified by the Romans. — Apollodorus
Sure. But they still converted sufficient numbers to start a movement .... — Apollodorus
How and why and to what extent Greek culture was absorbed into the ancient Jewish world is not always clear, but that it was is undeniable. From the time of Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C.E., Jews lived in a world in which Greek culture carried a certain prestige and offered a route to political influence.
Hellenistic and Roman-era art from the biblical world shines a spotlight on Judean identity and cultural influences during a formative period in the region’s history. From Hercules as trendy Israeli bathhouse décor to mosaics celebrating Helios, the sun god, in ancient synagogues, Greek culture permeated Judea.
It is even thought by some scholars that Jews in ancient times considered Helios a minor deity to whom they could offer prayers! Scholars are now weaving together evidence from archaeological sites and early Christian texts. Notes Lucille A. Roussin, A connection between the Jewish worship of angels and astrology is attested by many early Christian writers. According to the Preachings of Peter, referred to by Clement of Alexandria, the Jews, “thinking that they only know God, do not know him, adoring as they do angels and archangels, the months and the moon.” Origen writes in Contra Celsius that "what is astonishing about the Jews is that they adore the sky and the angels that inhabit it.”
As Professor Martin Goodman notes, “Outside of Jerusalem and Judea, Jews rarely treated Greek culture as a threat to their Judaism.” The lovely zodiac mosaic floors of Palestinian synagogues tell us that Jews had simply adopted those Hellenistic features that complemented their own worship, including Hebrew labels on the zodiac signs, and—according to some scholars—used images of the Greek sun god Helios to represent Yahweh, who has no form and cannot be represented in art, but is described in Jewish texts from biblical times as fiery like the sun.
Because the centuries immediately surrounding Jesus’ birth were such a formative period in Judean history, studying the Hellenization of Jewish and early Christian culture during this period is crucial in understanding biblical history. — Apollodorus
Several biblical scholars, my two favorite being John Dominic Crossan and Burton Mack, suggest that Jesus was influenced by Hellenistic thought. — Dermot Griffin
I suppose that would depend on the crime. It was still a disgraceful way to die- left to rot and then thrown in a mass unmarked grave. And it was also still considered a curse by Jews ... — Seppo
This is my opinion, but I'd be trying to stop a speeding locomotive with my bare hands if I thought I could garner any support among Christian philosophers and historians to my opinion as above. — god must be atheist
Grimes also claimed that the core of Jesus' message did not reflect the concerns or concepts of Judaism. I hope the contributions by schopenhauer1 and Oliver5, amongst others here, show how ridiculous that claim is.If sufficient evidence appeared proving Grimes’ thesis, then yes, I would not have a problem with that. — Dermot Griffin
But he did write in Greek, for people who could read Greek, no? — Apollodorus
I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains. — — — Antiquities of Jews XX, XI
Not necessarily. There could have been a number of other reasons. The text may be simply rendering what was actually said in Aramaic, etc. — Apollodorus
Well, by that logic, we might as well ignore the Gospels altogether. PLUS the fact they were written in Greek. In which case, there wouldn't be much point in me giving you any quote .... :smile: — Apollodorus
So he reluctantly learned it so he could explain Jewish history better to Greco-Roman audience. — schopenhauer1
Scholars debate about Josephus's intended audience. For example, Antiquities of the Jews could be written for Jews—"a few scholars from Laqueur onward have suggested that Josephus must have written primarily for fellow-Jews (if also secondarily for Gentiles) ... Neither motive explains why the proposed Gentile audience would read this large body of material.
Because people generally spoke Aramaic! — schopenhauer1
There is really no way for the author to know what was really stated in private if this was not open to the public. — schopenhauer1
The Book of John is without a doubt the MOST Greek-influenced.. — schopenhauer1
In other words, the authors took literary liberties here. It isn't live, captured recording or anything — schopenhauer1
You don't have to be fluent Spanish, but when someone says, "Comprende?" These are just words that have made it in the vernacular. — schopenhauer1
I see. If it is "Greek-influenced" then is mustn't be true. :grin: — Apollodorus
Sure. But this does not constitute evidence that Greek was not spoken together with Aramaic, does it? — Apollodorus
Scholarly opinion is divided on this: — Apollodorus
That's a big "IF" there. It is not unusual for people to communicate to others what had been said in private. :smile: — Apollodorus
No, it is fitting into a framework the author wanted.. — schopenhauer1
I already explained in what contexts that it would make sense that Greek was spoken by a person in Judea/Galilee. — schopenhauer1
Scholarly opinion is not divided on whether Josephus spoke Aramaic.. — schopenhauer1
Maybe the author got an exclusive with Pilate's bodyguard — schopenhauer1
Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
He likes to say that St. Paul “cut out” the Greek tradition from Christianity — Dermot Griffin
He wasn't "left to rot and thrown into an unmarked mass grave" at all. — Apollodorus
If Jesus had disciples among the Sanhedrin who did not consider him as "cursed", there is no logical reason why he couldn't have had disciples among the common people. — Apollodorus
Plus, there is no evidence that he was a "peasant". — Apollodorus
So, I don't think it is quite the way you are describing it — Apollodorus
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/544386Most US colleges and universities are notoriously dominated by atheists and anti-Christians like Ehrman. The same applies to journals of "Biblical scholarship".
He very probably was, as scholars like Ehrman have persuasively argued — Seppo
As I've said already, his disciples were both Jewish and common people — Seppo
Yes, it was very much the way I'm describing, and nothing that I've said here is particularly controversial as far as the relevant scholarship goes. — Seppo
Daniel Wallace has argued that in Misquoting Jesus Ehrman sometimes "overstates his case by assuming that his view is certainly correct ...
Well, it's a well-known fact that Ehrman woz there. And with eye-witnesses like him, who needs scholars, right? — Apollodorus
So, Jews were not common in Roman Palestine? — Apollodorus
Sorry, but I don't think Ehrman is "relevant scholarship" at all. The truth of the matter is that his theories have been widely criticized by Christians and scholars in general: — Apollodorus
Oh well, maybe someone else will take something from this conversation even if Apollodorus is unable to. — Seppo
Daniel Wallace has praised Ehrman as "one of North America's leading textual critics" and describes him as "one of the most brilliant and creative textual critics I have ever known". [emphasis added][ /quote]
I pointed this out months ago, but as he often does, he ignored it and now repeats this misrepresentation.
When exactly was the Jewish Canon actually formalized or closed? I’ve heard that the Council of Jamnia in the 2nd century was the official date but some scholars debate this. — Dermot Griffin
Who needs critical scholarship when we can just uncritically accept religious narratives? — Seppo
the Jewish scriptures claim that dying on a tree is a curse, — Seppo
All things confirmed by Paul, when he tells us how they had difficulty converting Jews — Seppo
according to all our records including/especially the Gospels, — Seppo
Jesus was a peasant — Seppo
And btw, "some people criticized this person, therefore everything this person says is wrong" isn't a particularly good argument. — Seppo
Clearly, you didn't think that question through, because "uncritically accept religious narratives" is exactly what you are doing - when it suits you: — Apollodorus
And you seem to be oblivious to the fact that most original Christians were Jews and that they succeeded in converting other Jews, including Paul himself! — Apollodorus
Jesus's closest disciples were Jews. The earliest Christians were those disciples, and their friends and family that they managed to convert... also mostly Jewish, probably. — Seppo
1. If he was a "peasant", so were most other Jews. So, why would peasants look down on other peasants??? — Apollodorus
2. In the NT Jesus is addressed or referred to by the title of "teacher" many times, so clearly not everyone considered him a "peasant"! — Apollodorus
I don't think "some people praised this person, therefore everything this person says is right" is any better. — Apollodorus
It looks like you not only uncritically accept religious narratives (when it suits your agenda), but also uncritically accept the dogmatic narratives of dodgy scholars .... — Apollodorus
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