My own understanding of mindfulness is about paying attention to body, emotions and thoughts. — Jack Cummins

Yes, I think this is exactly right. It's about awareness.

It is important to be aware of how mindfulness meditation arose in the context of Buddhism, although it has been developed independently from this within psychology. — Jack Cummins

I think the idea of "mindfulness" is a westernization of eastern principles. It's always seemed to me it was developed because people were embarrassed to talk seriously in a medical or psychological context about something tainted with mysticism. It's kind of Buddhism Lite.

Some people who use the term mindfulness seem almost oblivious to the roots of the word and idea. It does seem that this may be related to possible 'embarrassment' of its origins and how it has been underplayed within psychology. This may be about a value system as captured in the words of a Doors song, 'the West is best'. Unfortunately, many people do have an attitude towards philosophy which sees Eastern ideas as tainted with mysticism in opposed to the hard logic of rationality of science.

David Shapiro, a professor at the University of California, Irvine, found that 63% of the group studied, who had varying degrees of experience in meditation and had each tried mindfulness, had suffered at least one negative effect from meditation retreats, while 7% reported profoundly adverse effects including panic, depression, pain and anxiety. Shapiro’s study was small-scale; several research papers, including a 2011 study by Duke University in North Carolina, have raised concerns at the lack of quality research on the impact of mindfulness, specifically the lack of controlled studies.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jan/23/is-mindfulness-making-us-ill

I'll just leave this here lest we become overly happy and clappy.

Some people who use the term mindfulness seem almost oblivious to the roots of the word and idea. It does seem that this may be related to possible 'embarrassment' of its origins and how it has been underplayed within psychology. — Jack Cummins

I have experienced quite the opposite, many folk I know who have been mindfulness practitioners or therapists seem to think they are in touch with Buddhism and Eastern wisdom and are critiquing narrow Western patriarchy just by embracing this. That said, around my part of the world mindfulness seems to be going out of fashion after being a bit of a craze for a decade. I am not aware of all that many people finding it especially helpful, except in its initial novelty value. Like most modalities, it is likely to be practiced with varying levels of competence.

I am glad to hear that practitioners in your part of the world are looking to Eastern wisdom. I think that it is possible that mindfulness was a craze a few years ago but it has been spoken of so much that a lot of people are fed up with it. It is possible that the word mindfulness was overused as a buzz word.

I do still read about it because I have books in my room. To some extent I find it helpful but not that easy to apply. I find the most useful aspect is in connection with thoughts because it can involve being able to distance them rather than being caught up in the spirals. It seems to allow for reflective space.

I looked at the article you linked and I do see what you mean and I am not in favour of being 'happy and clappy'. Some of the kinds of therapies which portray that attitude make me feel unwell. My own approach to mindfulness incorporates dark emotions and thinking.

I think some conditions respond badly to it, but I forget which.

I am glad to hear that practitioners in your part of the world are looking to Eastern wisdom. — Jack Cummins

Amongst many in the helping professions I have found there is often an anti-Western bias - but sometimes an embrace of Eastern ideas is just a contemporary expression of Orientalism, which Edward Said critiqued so well decades ago. Nevertheless some people are eager to find tools which work, no matter where they come from.

I definitely look to all traditions for ideas that work. What I found when I was working in the helping profession in London, up until a year and a half ago, was a split between science and Christianity. Mostly, but not entirely, so many of the nursing staff were evangelical Christians and many of the psychiatrists were science orientated. I worked in one setting where all the staff were evangelical Christians and I found it so difficult as they were inclined to preach to me. Also, I remember being on night shifts, during breaks, with other staff were there reading their Bibles and they seemed so puzzled by all kinds of books, including philosophy, which I was reading.

nursing staff were evangelical Christians — Jack Cummins

That can be a problem. We sometimes see this in aged care services here because nursing staff tend to come from cultures and countries where literalism is the predominant expression of Christianity (or Islam). Dreadful stuff when trying to plan end of life for patients.

For the god-Squad, speak instead of The practicing of the Presence.

The Christian monastic and mystical tradition is very close to Buddhist practice behind the veil of cultural embellishments. But these embellishments are essential to those that are themselves embedded in a particular culture.

And that I think is the source some dangers, that folks make use of what is potentially a powerful technique for clearing the mind, without having any real cultural ground, and this leaves one prey to all sorts of fancies and terrors with no defence. Thus schools use mindfulness as a pacifier and social control, resulting in self-hypnosis rather than any awakening. Stress is the appropriate response to most schools, and mindfulness is used to repress the stress, not to liberate.

I was not involved in end of life care but I definitely found that ideas of treatment were affected by some religious beliefs. Also, in conjunction with the thread which is popping up constantly at the moment, on 'changing sex' (and I find it so depressing that I try to ignore it mostly), I found that some staff had particular difficulty coping with gay and transgender issues. That was mainly on the basis of fundamentalist religious beliefs.

It is interesting to think about mindfulness as a form of pacification. I had thought about that in relation to religious ideas generally, but not in connection with mindfulness in relation to stress. One thing which one professional told me is that If someone uses relaxation and meditation while in a state of extreme stress it can trigger psychosis. I have never been sure about the truth of this, but have wondered about it.

(and I find it so depressing that I try to ignore it mostly) — Jack Cummins

It's ugly and bigoted.

I found that some staff had particular difficulty coping with gay and transgender issues. That was mainly on the basis of fundamentalist religious beliefs. — Jack Cummins

Yes. People on philosophy sites tend to think of religion in its more sophisticated guises. The monstrous things it is still doing and teaching every day in the world is appalling.

Obviously, people on the forum have a right to express opinions, but the thread on 'changing sex' makes me feel so miserable that I am wondering if I wish to stop using the forum until it stops being the one popping up constantly. I wonder what on earth people are projecting onto transgender issues. I find the thread a complete disgrace to the site because I know someone who has ended up in a wheelchair for life after being attacked for being transsexual. The people who are writing on the thread may seem to be saying that they are not transphobic, but behind the surface of so many comments there does seem to be so much hostility.

You should try mindfulness, Jack; it's great for peace of mind.

I think that I need a bit of mindfulness to take the edge off things. Definitely it has a role to play and when getting stressed by online forums it may be the kind of situation where it is called for.

Obviously, people on the forum have a right to express opinions, but the thread on 'changing sex' makes me feel so miserable that I am wondering if I wish to stop using the forum until it stops being the one popping up constantly — Jack Cummins

I understand, Jack. There's obviously fear, bigotry and transphobia playing out there and a lot of misrepresentation and distraction. Personally I made a statement in support for transgender people (I have known many) and I feel like this is the least I could do.

The thing which I find puts me off this site and another one I use is that it often seems to be the most inflammatory statements which get a lot of responses. I am not saying it is always that way and some really worthwhile philosophy topics come up and that is why I continue to read and write here. But, I do find that I need to be mindful of my own use of it because if I get too involved in certain threads I find it can feel so negative, especially if I am alone, a bit like watching too much news on the television.

Florian Ruths has researched this area for 10 years, as clinical lead for mindfulness-based therapy in the South London and Maudsley NHS foundation trust. He believes it is possible to teach yourself mindfulness through apps, books or online guides. “For most people, I think if you’re not suffering from any clinical issues, or illness, or from stress to a degree that you’re somewhat disabled, it’s fine,” he says.

Seems about what one would expect.

The thing which I find puts me off this site and another one I use is that it often seems to be the most inflammatory statements which get a lot of responses. — Jack Cummins

That's the point, in many cases. It's called trolling. People always say "don't feed the troll" but I think they're often rather adorable and fun.

“For most people, I think if you’re not suffering from any clinical issues, or illness, or from stress to a degree that you’re somewhat disabled, it’s fine,” he says.

1 in 4 people will experience a mental health problem of some kind each year in England .
1 in 6 people report experiencing a common mental health problem (like anxiety and depression) in any given week in England.

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/statistics-and-facts-about-mental-health/how-common-are-mental-health-problems/

That "if", already qualified by "most", is itself quite large. The 'mostly harmless' epithet may literally be true, but that does not equate to 'safe'.

1 in 4 people will experience a mental health problem of some kind each year in England .
1 in 6 people report experiencing a common mental health problem (like anxiety and depression) in any given week in England.

To a degree that they're somewhat disabled? It doesn't seem to say.

around my part of the world mindfulness seems to be going out of fashion after being a bit of a craze for a decade. — Tom Storm

That'd be right. If anything becomes commoditized, a 'sure-fire path to [insert desired outcome here]' then you can be certain it is already on the way to going out of fashion. And that if research papers come out saying that mindfulness has benefits, you can be sure others will come out saying it has 'unexpected negative consequences'.

When I first encountered formal meditation-mindfulness practice in my 20's it was through a visiting teacher, a tall Midwesterner who presented a session at the local library. He had charts, a lot of scientific-sounding chatter about levels of consciousness, and so on. I was immediately impressed and enrolled in their program, which was later to become known as Transformations and became quite successful. Their program was modelled on transcendental meditation, twice daily sits, mantra meditation, combined with encounter-groupwork type sessions. I stuck around for a few years and I think I learned a lot from it. (They only went out of business in the last decade when one of their attendees suicided after a psychotic episode, sadly.)

From there, I started reading up on Buddhist meditation and became acquainted with the theory. I attended one of the well-known 10-day Vipassana Retreats at the end of 2007. It was pretty hard going, you're required to be on that cushion for around ten hours a day, two meals daily, maintaining silence. My own participation was far from exemplary, I constantly shifted and fidgeted. The recommended daily regimen is then to sit in silent meditation in the customary pose for two sixty-minute periods per day. I never did manage to maintain that. For about 10-12 years after that, I did try and religiously maintain a daily morning sitting session. I was able to manage a 45 minute session but it's really not an easy thing to do. A couple of years ago, our house was re-arranged and I moved rooms, and for whatever reason I fell out of the routine and have never managed to re-start it.

Overall, I feel that I have benefited greatly from this work, but in ways that are hard to articulate. The major change or shift occured around that time with Transformations, but I was also reading intently, mainly Krishnamurti and Buddhism. I had an encounter at a public talk with a charismatic and influential Tibetan Lama. During that time I experienced a realisation which has stayed with me ever since. It's no panacea, no silver bullet, but there's an underlying sense of one-ness and compassion that I'm sure would not be there had I not been through it. But much more to do.

By the way the foundational text for mindfulness is Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana. It's a very simple practice and idea. Too simple. Then someone came out with 'The Miracle of Mindfulness' - aha! Miracle! We want miracles! Give me a miracle! How do I get that?! And the circus begins.

A couple of more points. Mindfulness as such is only one element of Buddhist abhidharma, philosophical psychology. The root text is the Sattipatthana Sutta, The Way of Mindfulness. There is nothing like this text in biblical religions nor in Western philosophy. But bear in mind that it is part of an entire way of life and discipline. Personally, even though I admire it, I have found it a hard path to walk. (Something about wheat and tares.)

The other key point is emptiness also much misunderstood and often maligned. This talk is an excellent introduction. Emptiness is a mode of perception, a way of looking at experience, so as to avoid entanglement in prapanca, the profileration of words and ideas. Easy to say, hard to do.

By the way the foundational text for mindfulness is Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana. It's a very simple practice and idea. Too simple. Then someone came out with 'The Miracle of Mindfulness' - aha! Miracle! We want miracles! Give me a miracle! How do I get that?! And the circus begins. — Wayfarer

Indeed. Generally people are always looking for gizmos and gadgets to make life more sparkling or to solve their perceived problems. Beliefs and methods can be every bit as faddish, collectable and disposable as kitchenalia.

Mindfulness in Plain English by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana. It's a very simple practice and idea. Too simple. — Wayfarer

Nice.

To a degree that they're somewhat disabled? It doesn't seem to say. — praxis

It doesn't say, and I'm not sure that 'somewhat disabled' is quantifiable. But my feeling is that 'most' folks who manage to achieve a mental diagnosis of any sort are probably somewhat disabled. It's not an attractive handy label that folks will go look for very much. In fact it would be crazy to do so.

One important aspect of mindfulness is the experience of thoughts. The philosophy of mindfulness may be important here in being about observing thoughts rather than simply reacting to them. — Jack Cummins

To me that sounds like undirected introspection and a potential recipe for worsening mental illness. Isn't 'mindlessness' a more accurate term for what "mindfulness" is supposed to be? i.e. to avoid paying attention to thoughts by channelling attention elsewhere in order to reduce rumination and introspection?

I don't think it is possible to passively and objectively observe the mind; that seems erroneously suggestive of the myth a passive subject watching a distant cinema screen in the Cartesian Theatre.

To what extent is it possible to step outside of the chain of reactivity? In this thread, I am seeking to start a critical discussion about the nature of mindfulness as a state of awareness. To what extent is the idea helpful as a basis for coping with stress or as a philosophy for finding balance in life? — Jack Cummins

Everything that is a known to definitely reduce stress, e.g gardening, hiking, caring for a pet, painting etc seem to fit the definition of "mindlessness" i gave above, namely relaxed extrospection . If that is what mindfulness is actually supposed to be, then most people already practice it and intuitively know about it.

With 'mindfulness' i see at best a superfluous concept, and at worst a detrimental and mistaken ideology.

With 'mindfulness' i see at best a superfluous concept, and at worst a detrimental and mistaken ideology. — sime

There is good literature on the benefits of mindfulness in treating borderline personality disorder (which is very challenging to work with) and I have seen astonishing results in clinical practice situations over the years so I am not a total skeptic on this.

It doesn't say, and I'm not sure that 'somewhat disabled' is quantifiable. But my feeling is that 'most' folks who manage to achieve a mental diagnosis of any sort are probably somewhat disabled. — unenlightened

This again:

1 in 4 people will experience a mental health problem of some kind each year in England .
1 in 6 people report experiencing a common mental health problem (like anxiety and depression) in any given week in England.

It doesn't appear to claim that these cases are clinically diagnosed. Incidentally, there was a point in my life when I think that I could have been diagnosed with anxiety disorder, and I would say that I was somewhat disabled at the time. Not disabled enough to affect my work or most other normal activities, but some situations would inexplicably induce a panic attack. Panic attacks can be more than a little disabling.