It astounds you that posters here are trying to analyze the situation from an objective perspective? Daring to look at both sides of what has been a complex ongoing issue for years? On a philosophy forum. Really? Some of us have specifically condemned the invasion and those who haven't I presume do apart from the tiny pro-Russian crowd here, who are entitled to their perspective. Personally, I think Putin is a rotten piece of shit and I hope his troops get run out of Ukraine pronto. I feel like saying I hope every one of them gets a bullet in the head, but then I remember I taught Russian students, some of them were my friends, and some may have ended up in the army. Anyhow, that's irrelevant here. If all you want is shouting about how horrible all this is (and it is) go to the shoutbox rather than take shots at posters here for doing what they're supposed to be doing.

Putin genuinely seems to view things that he is doing from a historical perspective. Hence his actions now are responses to things that happened decades ago. — ssu

According to this 'historical' reasoning, Ukraine could be Swedish.

According to this 'historical' reasoning, Ukraine could be Swedish. — magritte

Why Swedish? (I am asking with good faith because I saw your point very interesting). I thought both Russian and Ukranian citizens felt closer due to their Slavic roots

Daring to look at both sides of what has been a complex ongoing issue for years? — Baden

But while wearing the objectivity hat, you can't condemn either side. If the US was enthusiastic about neoliberalizing and democratizing the area, it's because there was a power vacuum. Pure physics.

So-called historical reasoning is a fallacy, quite typical of Marxist-Leninist thought. It takes history to be an objective criterion for political judgment.

But history is different for each culture or political entity as is written in their language in their history books. Usually it fixes the world at the glorious height of a culture's power. Spanish and English history books will conveniently differ on issues of past national conflicts. Canadian and US history is different.

The situation in the Balkan and Eastern European states is very complex further because of the long history of the various foreign rulers and empires of which these lands were part. Moreover, what is now one country or parts thereof, often used to be part of several other countries. — baker

There is no point reading Pali suttas if you can’t read the writing on the wall in the real world.

Biden is a senile old man on medication who wants to take revenge on Putin for allegedly helping Trump beat Hillary.

When Biden says he isn’t going to send troops into Ukraine what he really means is the following:

When Boris Johnson sent British troops to Ukraine in January to “train Ukrainians”, that was a cover for special operations. The troops were pulled out but left “specialists” behind. That's an established British procedure.

The Brits (and some Americans) are now inside Ukraine organizing resistance aiming for (a) Russian retreat, (b) civil war, or (c) world war.

They have also completely penetrated Russia where they are organizing “peace-demos”, cyber-attacks on government institutions (together with Anonymous), and planning a coup to topple Putin in collaboration with America and then grab Russia's resources.

It is absolutely clear that Biden and Johnson have come to an understanding to overthrow the Russian government. All the talk about “sanctions” is just a smokescreen.

So, if you really care about your people you must tell them that it is time for Germany, France, Italy, and other European countries to unite, make peace with Russia, and kick America out of Europe. It’s either that or slavery. If you care about the future, don't repeat the mistakes of the past. The people of Europe must stand up and fight for their rights. And they must do it NOW, before it's too late.

Biden is a senile old man on medication who wants to take revenge on Putin for allegedly helping Trump beat Hillary.

When Biden says he isn’t going to send troops into Ukraine what he really means is the following:

When Boris Johnson sent British troops to Ukraine in January to “train Ukrainians”, that was a cover for special operations. The troops were pulled out but left “specialists” behinds.

The Brits (and some Americans) are now inside Ukraine organizing resistance aiming for (a) Russian retreat, (b) civil war, or (c) world war.

They have also completely penetrated Russia where they are organizing “peace-demos”, cyber-attacks on government institutions (together with Anonymous), and planning a coup to topple Putin in collaboration with America.

It is absolutely clear that Biden and Johnson have come to an understanding to overthrow the Russian government. All the talk about “sanctions” is just a smokescreen.

So, if you really care about your people you must tell them that it is time for Germany, France, Italy, and other European countries to unite, make peace with Russia, and kick America out of Europe. It’s either that or slavery. If you care about the future, don't repeat the mistakes of the past. The people of Europe must stand up and fight for their rights. And they must do it NOW, before it's too late. — Apollodorus

This is copypasta from an intern working in a Russian propaganda agency, right? It's really that silly.

Of course, what else could it be? I think people can decide for themselves, though .... :smile:

Generally, what we try to do here is analysis, which involves reason and evidence. If you're not here for that, don't post in the thread. You can do random nonsense in the Shoutbox or the Lounge.

Biden is a ... man

...Biden says he isn’t going to send troops into Ukraine...:

...Boris Johnson sent British troops to Ukraine in January to “train Ukrainians”,... That's an established British procedure.

The Brits (and some Americans) are ... aiming for (a) Russian retreat...

...Russia ... are organizing “peace-demos”, ...

...Biden and Johnson ...talk about “sanctions” ....

...is good. The rest needs evidence.

Fixed it.

Spanish and English history books will conveniently differ on issues of past national conflicts. — magritte

Agree, this one of the aspects I do not like about so called "historians" with all my deepest respect. They write their thesis or theories are clearly so political. In this context, it is difficult to believe what's is going on because they forget an objective analysis

So when in 1997 Ukraine signed the Charter on a Distinctive Partnership, https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_25457.htm that was what? A joke? A cunning double bluff? — Isaac

Uh uh, did it ever occurred that Russia also signed in 1997 in May, the founding act on "Mutual Relations, Cooperation and Security between NATO and the Russian Federation"? Months earlier than Ukraine a similar charter? It did. From the founding act:

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization and its member States, on the one hand, and the Russian Federation, on the other hand, hereinafter referred to as NATO and Russia, based on an enduring political commitment undertaken at the highest political level, will build together a lasting and inclusive peace in the Euro-Atlantic area on the principles of democracy and cooperative security.

NATO and Russia do not consider each other as adversaries. They share the goal of overcoming the vestiges of earlier confrontation and competition and of strengthening mutual trust and cooperation. The present Act reaffirms the determination of NATO and Russia to give concrete substance to their shared commitment to build a stable, peaceful and undivided Europe, whole and free, to the benefit of all its peoples. Making this commitment at the highest political level marks the beginning of a fundamentally new relationship between NATO and Russia. They intend to develop, on the basis of common interest, reciprocity and transparency a strong, stable and enduring partnership.

And the act goes on with further details...

So do notice that both Russia and Ukraine were in the Partnership for Peace program with NATO.

It was President Leonid Kuchma who first started talking about Ukraine joining NATO in 2002. Yet far before that, Russia had already started to operate for the annexation of Crimea, firstly (as then later done by Putin), making it "indepenedent" and then joining Russia:

In early 1994, Crimea elected Yuri Meshkov as President. Meshkov, an ethnic Russian and former K.G.B. border guard, won overwhelming support from fellow ethnic Russians in a campaign managed by a reputed covert operative from Moscow. Meshkov's pro-Russian position and claims for Crimea's independence had complicated relations between Kiev and Simferopol, and between Kiev and Moscow. The first Crimean president expressed his views to reporters in mid-February 1994 as follows:

The main aspect of my policy is Crimea's independence. Independence alone will allow us to solve our economic problems. The results of the presidential elections confirmed the population's orientation to economic, cultural and other links with Russia, and to reunion with Russia....The Black Sea Fleet must be indivisible, belong to Russia and be based in Sevastopol which is an inalienable part of the Republic of Crimea.

(See Crimea and the Black Sea Fleet in Russian- Ukrainian Relations)

Hence as early as 1994, Russia was supporting an agenda of reuniting Crimea with Russia. Since it didn't pan out earlier, and many other things were done to get Crimea, just like giving Russian passports of Crimeans etc, the Maidan revolution was a perfect opportunity to do it militarily.

The idea that the annexation of Ukrainian territory was in some way a response to US actions is simply and utterly false. Russia has had real territorial ambitions over Ukrainian territory and hence is acting as a classical imperialist power wanting secure geostrategically important territory. Even @Apollodorus admits this.

In order to keep Ukraine out of NATO there would have been a multitude different was to achieve this. Just as Russia has gotten all the US bases to be closed in Central Asia. And do remember that Ukraine is a democracy, however corrupt, and what the people think does matter and hence the polls do matter also.

Now Putler has surely united the Ukrainians. All the support for the Ukrainians defending their country and for the Russians protesting against the war.

Britain has already admitted arming Ukraine:

Boris Johnson news - live: Putin’s plans ‘go way beyond Ukraine’, minister warns as UK to boost arms supply – The Independent

Tory MP Tobias Ellwood, a former soldier, recalling serving in Bosnia, told ITV News: “Nato wasn’t part of Bosnia there, but there was a commitment to European security, and now we are playing catch-up.
He added: “Things won’t stop here. Let’s make this very, very clear. Putin’s ideological intention to expand his sphere of influence will go way beyond Ukraine.”
Meanwhile, the UK has pledged to continue to supply arms to Ukraine’s military.
“We know what the Ukrainians want. We are doing our best to get it to them,” UK armed forces minister James Heappey told Sky News.

1. Britain arming and training Ukraine is a FACT.

2. Logically, this can have only one aim, to force Russia to retreat or face civil war and, potentially, world war with US intervention.

See also:

Biden signs memo to give Ukraine £448m in immediate military assistance – PA

Do notice also that France is doing this.

Macron wrote that France will provide Ukraine with a “additional budgetary assistance of 300 million euros” and “will provide the defensive material they need."

↪Apollodorus

Generally, what we try to do here is analysis, which involves reason and evidence. If you're not here for that, don't post in the thread. You can do random nonsense in the Shoutbox or the Lounge. — Baden

:up:

You can add this as well (among other things if you take a few minutes to do some research):

Hacktivists Plot Attacks on Russia With Ukraine Government's Urging - Bloomberg

Hackers are coming to Ukraine’s aid in an effort to target Russian government websites and officials with disruptive counterattacks, according to six people involved in the activity.

Hacker collective Anonymous declares 'cyber war' against Russia, disables state news website - ABC

Yeah, because "France is doing this" that means Britain isn't doing it. Great logic there, congrats! :grin:

I live about 1000 km SW from where it's happening.
Day and night, heavy cargo airplanes are flying over, NE bound, a few per hour.

Flying over Slovenia? That's NATO troops and materiel being flown to Poland, Lithuania, and other places. From US bases in Italy ....

This is copypasta from an intern working in a Russian propaganda agency, right? It's really that silly. — Baden

It's "silly" only in the sense that it comes too late. Most Europeans have sold their souls to the US long ago.

It's "silly" only in the sense that it comes too late. — baker

Too late to believe... let me see, that "Russian peacekeepers go to an artificial country that is headed by neo-nazis and drug users to de-nazify the place?"

Yeah right.

It's "silly" only in the sense that it comes too late. Most Europeans have sold their souls to the US long ago. — baker

In what way have, for example, we in Sweden "sold our souls" to the US? Please explain, from the perspective of my country, how we've done this and how our fear of Russia's threats against us is "selling our souls"?

In what way have, for example, we in Sweden "sold our souls" to the US? Please explain, from the perspective of my country, how we've done this and we can start to evaluate your "argument". — Christoffer

Soon you will be nazis. Just like we will be.

And we will both be an existential threat to Russia, because... the US is bad.

It's never too late. If Ukrainians can resist Russia in Ukraine, Europeans can resist America in Europe. It's just a matter of Europeans uniting against foreign powers.

I for one find it rather strange that the pro-NATO camp object to Russian domination of Ukraine but not to American domination of Europe ....

As I said, I'm not making any further comments on Ukraine, other than to point out that real people are being killed in large numbers. — Wayfarer

In the EU, a kilogram of zucchini costs about 1,80 Euros, often more.
The Spanish zucchini farmer who grows them gets about 5 cents for a kilogram, and that if he is very lucky. Usually, the price is even lower than that.

Real people are living misearble lives, in large numbers, people dying slowly in misery to feed the EU which wants to live like the elite.

Odd how people don't think this is offensive.

Look at the level of your discourse.

Look at the level of your discourse. — baker

Look at your own perhaps?

Europeans can resist America in Europe. — Apollodorus

There is no will to do so, because Europeans have become too entitled, too greedy, too thankless, too short-sighted. They've become like a bunch of spoiled teenagers.

There is no will to do so, because Europeans have become too entitled, too greedy, too thankless, too short-sighted. They've become like a bunch of spoiled teenagers. — baker

I asked you a question before, please answer instead of continuing with these bullshit opinions. If you complain about others' level of discourse, please fix your own first.

Most Europeans sold themselves to the US after WW2 when they accepted Marshall Plan aid in exchange for European unification and US domination.

Sweden was a signatory of the financial-aid-coordinating agency, the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation (later renamed Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development or OECD).

By signing up to the Marshall Plan, every signatory country, including Sweden, pledged itself to abide by the deal.