Heterosexuality is so passé. If you don't find a female to be intimate with, find a male....

So, you give one reason for 'a man hating women'. I haven't read all the discussion, so what are the other key reasons as to why women might be seen as posing some kind of a threat to the power of men? — Amity

I complained that the OP was uncritical of the 'reasons' (scare quotes because the reasoning is false) for men's hate and violence against women. The author _db explained that they were not subscribing to the 'reasoning' but describing it. The concepts of rationalisation - 'handy excuse' as you say - and victim-blaming were used to criticise the 'reasoning'.

Or are women generally less violent than men? — Amity

I would say - quite obviously 'yes'. But it doesn't follow that any given man will be more or less violent than any given woman. Take a violent man and you will likely find a history of being somewhat a loser. Take a non-violent man and you will quite likely find the same. That's because there are more losers than winners in the world . Take a man with lots of money and high social status and you won't be any less likely to have found someone who is violent towards women than if you picked just any old average loser. Women are generally less violent than men. But the step from there to 'incels are a threat' is a big and uncertain logical move.

If you don't find a female to be intimate with, find a male.... — Olivier5

Even then. Hard.
I firmly believe that sexual frustration is at the root of all wars started by men.
Why don't y'all just cut straight to the chase?
Commit suicide. Go to heaven. Have the requisite number of virgins. And be done with it already.
Not sure if that offer applies to women...

Oooops, my brain just flipped :scream:

Why don't y'all just cut straight to the chase?
Commit suicide. — Amity

Because we love life and love each other. Despite...[insert everything]

Why don't y'all just cut straight to the chase?
Commit suicide. — Amity

You know, folks do do that... Rates of youth suicide and attempted youth suicide in Western societies are quite high.

I complained that the OP was uncritical of the 'reasons' (scare quotes because the reasoning is false) for men's hate and violence against women. The author _db explained that they were not subscribing to the 'reasoning' but describing it. — Cuthbert

Yes, you did well to rescue the discussion. It was in danger of becoming hysterical.
Much appreciated.

Or are women generally less violent than men?
— Amity

I would say - quite obviously 'yes'. But it doesn't follow that any given man will be more or less violent that any given woman. Take a violent man and you will likely find a history of being somewhat a loser. Take a non-violent man and you will quite likely find the same. That's because there are more losers than winners in the world . — Cuthbert

Yes. The winner takes it all.

Women are generally less violent than men. But the step from there to 'incels are a threat' is a big and uncertain logical move — Cuthbert

The threat from incels is not one of my illogical moves. I do have others, though.
'Twas just the US Secret Service. Have they nothing better to do?

Because we love life and love each other. Despite...[insert everything] — Cuthbert

:heart: :pray: :fire:

Rates of youth suicide and attempted youth suicide in Western societies are quite high. — Olivier5

I know. And that is most concerning. For all kinds of reasons.
It's not a laughing matter but my brain did a flip. Don't blame me.
It was the cheese toastie I had for breakfast...

One can laugh of everything in my culture, dying kids included. So I take no offense whatsoever and understand your point, that self-aggression was so to speak the traditional way to treat such cases until now: 'nobody loves me, good bye cruel world'.

An ex girlfriend of mine pumped a bullet in her head, making it clear she was doing it because I wouldn't come back to her. That still hurts, decades later. I'm crying writing this down now...

So suicide used to be the way. But now some of those incels are killing others too, prior to suicide. So by that metric, the problem is getting worse.

Good account of the situation as it is in certain parts of the world. I'm just curious, is the incel phenomenon global? I haven't heard of incels in countries other than the US of A. Is it just under-reporting or do they lack a platform to band together? I dunno.

Also, I didn't know incel had a women's wing. Well, at least in equal/proportionate representation they didn't get the short end of the stick. Bitter sweet.

An ex girlfriend of mine pumped a bullet in her head, making it clear she was doing it because I wouldn't come back to her. That still hurts, decades later. I'm crying writing this down now... — Olivier5

So sorry to hear this. You have my sincere sympathy. I hope you weren't there when she shot herself.
Bad enough to find a body...or read a note...or listen to the words, repeated.

That is the saddest thing about some suicides.
Some know the effect it will have on others left behind. And don't care.
Making them the reason for their unhappiness, their death.
Some have mental health problems. Others might have an immature attitude as to what love is...

It takes strength not to return to a partner who threatens suicide, even as you still hold some love for them. It takes a lot of guts to deal with severely unhappy relationships; cutting out the toxicity.
Knowing what the fall-out might be...

I don't know your circumstances but I reckon you're one of the brave guys.

The pain and the pleasure of being human, hmm.

I haven't heard of incels in countries other than the US of A. Is it just under-reporting or do they lack a platform to band together? I dunno. — Agent Smith

Google will help you know. But then again, if you don't even read the articles you link to:

I didn't know incel had a women's wing — Agent Smith

Experts at the University of Exeter say a major new study tracking the rise of 'incel culture' across the world could help anti-terror efforts and prevent violent attacks.

Five months on from the shootings in Plymouth which left six people dead, new figures show a steep rise in the number of people visiting online forums dedicated to 'involuntary celibates', in which men discuss their resentment and hatred of women.

New data released by the Centre for Countering Digital Hate shows last year web traffic to three of the largest 'incel' sites grew from 114,420 monthly visits in March last year to 638,505 in November.

Why is incel culture growing?

Dr Brace said people are at home more, are isolated more and are spending more time online - particularly as a result of the pandemic.
He said: "So it makes sense that people will engage with this content more and more.

But women objectify themselves and other women in this same way. Pick up pretty much any "women's" magazine, book, tv show, seminar, webinar, and there it is: "see yourself as a piece of meat to be fucked".

It's a bit of a stretch to say that women do this because they are the poor victims of patriarchy. — baker

I would agree that women, being people, have the capacity to make decisions. Bikini models choose to be bikini models, etc. Alcoholics choose to be alcoholics (60% of the revenue in the alcohol industry comes from alcoholics), etc.

But I think that it would be too shallow of an analysis to entirely put the blame for objectification on the women who choose to objectify themselves. The objectification is marketed towards men - it is the male gaze that these women are attempting to satisfy. And by doing so there is the implicit message: that if you don't look like this, you aren't good enough.

There is also a case to be made that the objectification of women reached new heights when women joined the workforce. After the feminine mystique was demolished in the first wave of feminism, there had to be a way to compensate for the economic loss that came with women leaving the kitchen. They weren't buying the household stuff that they usually did. The only thing left was to ramp up the body image ideal. More makeup, more clothes, more surgeries, more diets. It's all about the $ $ $ $ $ . It also happened to put an unfair double standard on women, who not only had to be professionals but also had to be beautiful (a fluid concept that cannot be pinned down).

The feminization of women is fundamentally a male phenomenon; the femininity that is imposed upon women is a male construct. The entire purpose is to keep women from acting like men; only men are allowed to be full persons. This is also why homosexuality was and still is so loathed by patriarchy - it puts a man in a woman's place (he is getting fucked, but that's a woman's role! Men do the fucking, and women get fucked).

That is the saddest thing about some suicides.
Some know the effect it will have on others left behind. And don't care.
Making them the reason for their unhappiness, their death. — Amity

Yes, suicide is often used to hurt others too. Sometimes, it is not just self-violence; rather it is meant to scar others permanently. And it does. The suicide of a loved one is not something one can forget.

An ex girlfriend of mine pumped a bullet in her head, making it clear she was doing it because I wouldn't come back to her. That still hurts, decades later. I'm crying writing this down now... — Olivier5

{{{{{Olivier}}}}}} I am so very sorry for what you have endured as the result of another's personal choice.
I mean nothing more and nothing less than to let you know that my heart aches for you.

Oooops, my brain just flipped :scream: — Amity

2.8k replies and it just now flipped? :rofl:
You are a flipping Warrior! :sparkle:

You know, folks do do that... Rates of youth suicide and attempted youth suicide in Western societies are quite high. — Olivier5

Correction - Rates of male suicide are very high:

Peace :victory: :heart: :sparkle:

Where can you see the suicides in the graphic?

Where can you see the suicides in the graphic? — EugeneW

The graph represents rates of suicide in the US. Here's a link:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6909a7.htm

Wilhelm Reich says the same. Restricted sexuality gives birth to worlds of terror.

One in 1000 mans kill themselves in the US? Djee, what kind of country is that?

Wilhelm Reich says the same. Restricted sexuality gives birth to worlds of terror. — EugeneW

Yes, that's the thesis of The Mass Psychology of Fascism. Interesting note.

Wilhelm Reich says the same. Restricted sexuality gives birth to worlds of terror.
— EugeneW

Yes, that's the thesis of The Mass Psychology of Fascism. Interesting note. — Olivier5

Wow. I had no idea :gasp:
Really?!

If my math is correct, about 20 suicides per 100,000 males translates into 1 in 5000 males committing suicide per year, as of 2018.

The graph says 120 per 100 000. 180 even. That's about 1 in 500!

Ooob. It's 12.0

Yes. This view is in contrast with Freud's, who frequently spoke of how repressed sexual energy can be turned into socially acceptable creativity and hard work through 'sublimation'. Reich says: "it can also be turned into hatred". He posited that as an explanation for the rise of fascism in the 1920s. I read the book a long time ago and was left unconvinced that Reich had 'nailed' it.

Finding a convincing explanation for the historical rise of fascism is an important task, still unfinished I think.

12.0 = 12

That's the value for male firearm suicide per year. There's another 7 guys killing themselves by suffocation, and another 2 by poisoning. Total 21 per 100,000.

We have to put humanity in an orgone accumulator!

Yeah, I realized. Still, 1 in 5000... That's 60 000 per year.