The overarching aims of the invasion are as follows.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589
"Russia is ... aiming for a neutral Ukraine. Russia may also seek to hold on to its territorial conquests - both Crimea in the south and in Ukraine's east.

They control the breakaway regions now and they've got Zelensky to say his country will never join NATO for a start. — Baden

Russia can seek and aim all it wants, but after a month of fighting all they have to show is control of some breakaway areas and Zelensky backpedalling on NATO, that's a military disaster. This is not where Russia wanted to be a month in.

Do you think they can sustain these kinds of losses indefinitely??? — RogueAI

I don't expect them to keep doing the same things. I expect them to adjust strategy to reduce their losses.

Propaganda: zealous speech to persuade. "Their propaganda is all lies, our propaganda is full of truth." — Bitter Crank

Yes, and no one has answered my question. Given we do propaganda too, obviously. What is it? If it's invisible to us, that's a problem.

It is absolutely heart-breaking.

Given we do propaganda too, obviously. What is it? If it's invisible to us, that's a problem. — Baden

If the enemy is getting mauled, the truth is its own propaganda. We don't need to make anything up. Russia has committed a catastrophic blunder, and it's obvious to the whole world. Why should we risk our credibility inventing stories when the truth is all anyone needs to hear?

You mean achieving aims, which it would have settled for before the war is a complete disaster for it and a victory for the Ukraine who now can't even stop the war by conceding what would have prevented the war in the first place? That's ridiculous. The big loser in terms of strategic outcome here is Ukraine. They'll probably never get the breakaway regions back and never get to join NATO and as a bonus have their country completely fucked up.

If our propaganda is utterly invisible to you and you think it's the 'truth' then you're just a tool. For a start, the spin that Russia is getting 'mauled' by Ukraine as if Ukraine are winning here rather than just holding out while suffering much greater losses, if you include non-combatants, is batshit crazy.

I am sorry, gentlemen, but the rot is deep. If we ever want to be of help to anyone, the first responsibility is a cool and detached look at reality. Without that we are useless to them.

. The big loser in terms of strategic outcome here is Ukraine. — Baden

But are they really losing if they're fighting against another corrupt putin-puppet being in charge of their country?

You mean achieving aims, which it would have settled for before the war is a complete disaster for it and a victory for the Ukraine who now can't even stop the war by conceding what would have prevented the war in the first place? — Baden

I don't think anything would have prevented this war. Putin thought it would be a cakewalk, and the West was too dependent on his energy to do anything but mount token resistance.

"The big loser in terms of strategic outcome here is Ukraine. They'll probably never get the breakaway regions back and never get to join NATO and as a bonus have their country completely fucked up."

If David drives off Goliath and suffers some broken bones in the process, who's the big loser of that fight?

If David drives off Goliath and suffers some broken bones in the process, who's the big loser of that fight? — RogueAI

We're not in a Bible movie. Discuss this like an adult or don't discuss it at all.

I am sorry gentleman but the rot is deep. If we ever want to be of help to anyone, the first responsibility is to a cool and detached look at reality. Without that we are useless to them. — Baden

Like Wayfarer said, there aren't two sides to every story. Climate change is real, and the reality of the Holocaust is not "Western Propaganda". This is a disaster for Russia, from any perspective.

Tens of thousands of dead Ukranians, cities turned to ash = "some broken bones"

Jfc

We're not in a Bible movie. Discuss this like an adult or don't discuss it at all. — Baden

Seriously? David (Ukraine) fights until the bigger country (Russia) cries uncle and leaves. Even if David breaks a couple arms (damage to Ukraine), who lost that fight?

The figure you site may very well be true. But surely there are significant losses on the Ukrainian side, soldiers and civilians alike. A lot o material damage Is being inited by the Russians. Even if they flat out lose, leave with tails tucked between their legs, the damage Russia has inflicted on Ukraine's structures will have to be repaired. The damage done to Ukrainian society will, of course, be more difficult to repair.

A total breakdown of the Ukrainian forces could still happen I guess, but it's not happening... — Olivier5

The Ukrainians have the 'home court advantage' -- no small thing. There is more adrenaline to fight hard for one's own land than to ruin someone else's.

Having about 7% of the population displaced to other countries is also no small thing,

We're not discussing this on the same level. Take care.

If someone can't come up with even one thing they're being told about this war from their own side that is more propaganda/spin than truth then they're not worth talking to as they are not capable of critical analysis. That goes for Westerners and Russians.

what about my last question to you tho?

Tens of thousands of dead Ukranians, cities turned to ash = "some broken bones"

Jfc — StreetlightX

Brave Westerners willing to fight to the Ukranians' last broken bone. :sad:

The figure you site may very well be true. But surely there are significant losses on the Ukrainian side, soldiers and civilians alike. A lot o material damage Is being inited by the Russians. Even if they flat out lose, leave with tails tucked between their legs, the damage Russia has inflicted on Ukraine's structures will have to be repaired. The damage done to Ukrainian society will, of course, be more difficult to repair. — Bitter Crank

Ukraine is not going to emerge from this unscathed. Their losses will be considerable. But they have rich friends in their corner, and they're going to end up in the EU, if they hold Russia off. They'll be the darlings of the free world, if they pull it off. They'll be rebuilt.

Russia, on the other hand, is fucked. That's all there is to it. They miscalculated so badly on this. Even if they beat Ukraine into submission, the world will look at them as pariahs and their economy will sink down to something like Iran's.

what about my last question to you tho? — Changeling

But are they really losing if they're fighting against another corrupt putin-puppet being in charge of their country? — Changeling

Russia hasn't demanded Zelensky step down and that a Putin puppet be installed as far as I know. But if you're fighting a losing battle then, yes, you are losing, obviously. The question is can they win and at what cost. I don't think they can beat Russia and I don't think reducing their country to rubble trying is worth it.

the world will look at them as pariahs — RogueAI

The question is can they win and at what cost. — Baden

Yes, they can win. We've seen it happen before with this particular country bullying a smaller one: Afghanistan.

Afghanistan. — RogueAI

Yes, well, if Ukraine was 80% mountains it would be a little more difficult to get those tanks through.

Yes, well, if Ukraine was 80% mountains it would be a little more difficult to get those tanks through. — Baden

The Russians lost 15,000 men in Afghanistan after years of fighting. They've lost 10,000+ in one month fighting Ukraine. Ukrainians don't seem to need mountains.

I don't know why you think it's so outlandish that Ukraine can hold Russia off, especially since it already happened in Afghansitan. We know this particular playbook.

There is more adrenaline to fight hard for one's own land than to ruin someone else's. — Bitter Crank

There must be a lot of anger in those kids sent to die in an absurd war. Of course you could say all wars are absurd, but in their case, the nationalist ideology or worldview underlying the attack isn't even anything clear. I mean, you can disagree with Communism -- ir fascism -- but these were relatively clear, unambiguous ideoligies. Putin's megalomania has failed to translate into clear ideas. Some ideological amorphous marshmallow, some vague, faux-grandiose delirium mixed with paranoia doesn't a Trotsky or a Lenine make. Ideological marshmallows won't help the soldier much on the battlefield either.

This war is absurd and the guys fighting it knows it.

Having about 7% of the population displaced to other countries is also no small thing,

Plus all the internally displaced.

"Russian warship featured on Pro-Putin "RT" network one day prior to its explosion"
https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-24-22/index.html

Like I said, why bother with propaganda when you've got CNN reporting this stuff?

Imagine using Afghanistan as a country that turned out well after a protracted war.

To say nothing of the current American induced famine over there right now.

A decade long war of attrition is fine apparently as long as Dave fucks over Golgoth or whatever.

I'm convinced that some people think war is a video game because that is literally the only association they've ever had with it, Ukranians being just NPCs who can drop dead in mass fashion so long as they get a 'win' trophy at the end.

Shhh, look, Dave shot big ship! Yay!