Sure, but pulling back lift cbecause it's a debacle?
Or pulling back because they achieved their core goals through force? — boethius
What exactly are you talking about? Are you saying a promise should be made, but with no intention to actually keep it?
— baker
For the sake of peace, a ceasefire deal affected and used as an opportunity to re-think and pursue strategic objectives further down the road when Russia is weakened by sanctions. — FreeEmotion
Why the insistence on making a tough stand now
I am learning new and disturbing things about 'our' world, things that do not inspire confidence in a peaceful future.
They haven't achieved anything of note around Kyiv. — Olivier5
The capital is almost intact. — Olivier5
No need to invent bizarre convoluted explanations if there is a perfectly simple and good one at hand, fitting everything we know including what the Russian side itself has said and done. — Olivier5
the selective hysterics over Russia — StreetlightX
That is truly an absurd statement. — Olivier5
The EU resents being dependent for resources, doubly so because they are dirty resources that pollute the environment, and so it projects these negative feelings onto the country from which it imports those resources. — baker
There are people just like us in Urkaine - parents with families, wage-earners, people just trying to get along, make a living, live their lives, whose homes are destroyed, loved ones killed, families separated, cities in ruins. And for what? Let's not forget that. — Wayfarer
As much as I would like to believe this I would not frame things in these terms. For one, it assumes the EU gives a damn about trading with tyrants. — StreetlightX
Second, never account in terms of feelings what can be accounted for in terms of power. And this is very much about power.
So I guess where I disagree with your analysis, is that I do believe that Putin is solely responsible. He is, after all, a dictator. He's dictated this conflict, written the script, which has not turned out at all as planned. — Wayfarer
I suppose their worries per se are sanctions, economy, and losing face, ...? — jorndoe
Exactly, and that plan failed disastrously. — Olivier5
Yeah I don't know what's up with their website. — jamalrob
I think he really did at one time expect and desire that Russia go down the route of liberal democracy in the style of Western Europe. The difference in his explicit position on these issues between then and now is striking, and important to understand. — jamalrob
Where is the "emotional maturity" of doing politics primarily or even solely on the level of whose will prevails??
— baker
It requires enough faith in people that you can allow them to discover their own way.
Every generation faces challenges to that faith. People who want to destroy that faith abound. You're an example of a person who's never had that faith.
It's not for everyone. That's for sure. — frank
Or maybe this Littell fuck is sincere - it really is just better for the West when Russians are swamped in poverty. — StreetlightX
Everything indicates it was the plan. You do not need to defend the strategic blunders if the Kremlin. — Olivier5
So there are no other roads to take? It's either the authoritarian regime imprisoning or poisoning critics of the state, propaganda to the point of total denying reality... or a consumerist hellhole? — Christoffer
Because that is the dichotomy you are presenting here.
If giving the population the individual freedom to choose their own path in life, to give them security in freedom of speech, to have real democratic elections (a democracy with low corruption is still the best system in existence, and if you don't agree then provide an example of a functioning alternative system), is the same as a consumerist hellhole, you might need to elaborate how you reach that conclusion.
Just because western culture has a lot of problems that a lot of modern philosophy is examining and dissecting, that doesn't mean Russia is better. It's not, it's an authoritarian state with state violence against anyone who doesn't follow the rule of the "king".
The total genius of Western democracies is that they outsourced government oppression to individual people. So that it isn't the government which oppresses people, it's Tom oppressing Dick and Harry. The government's hands are clean, but the people walk on eggshells and fear for their jobs and lives. At the same time, they are becoming more and more alike, the differences between them are superficial at best, one big mass of mindless drones. And what does it help if some politician can hold his elected position of power only for 4, 8 or, 10 years, or so, if the next one differs from him only by name?
The greatest trick that the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. — baker
Maybe first get Russia to a place where people don't get poisoned, imprisoned, and don't have an authoritarian leader who plays around with his rich friends while a large part of Russia lives on almost nothing. If that means more western standards, so be it. If not western standards, then feel free to present a system of state that frees Russia while keeping western standards of living out of there.
It's tiresome to hear people complain about a solution when there's no alternative solution presented that is better. If you want real-world solutions you might need to be a bit more pragmatic. Idealism is good for changing a system that is already somewhat functioning, pragmatism is needed when a system is fundamentally broken.
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