And the famous Finland schools with no homework.
Maybe there is something there: being forced to do homework in authoritarian school system have somehow closed the minds of President Putin and President Zelenskyy to look at authoritarian measures, to use force for what should be accomplished through natural devotion to duty? Maybe that is what the powers that be want. — FreeEmotion
Yet notice that even the Ukrainian government has urged people to leave eastern Ukraine now, and with the reality of what denazification looks like on the ground emerging, people likely will move. This works fine to Putin's objectives as the last thing he would want in the Novorossiya he is looking for to have a large hostile population of Ukrainians.I guess a good 4 million has fled, and some are now returning, including children. — jorndoe
In continuing to be annoying on this thread, I have to disagree and make a correction: — ssu
You can disagree with it but that's the position Russia will take. — Benkei
Without NATO enlargement, the Russians likely would have military bases in the Baltic states again. — ssu
There is an anthropological fact ... Nationality is one way we understand our social identity. — neomac
> The working class in both societies have more common interest against the ruling classes of both societies than the entire population of one has against the entire population of another.
Common in what sense? What are the evidences to support your claim? — neomac
to talk about responsibility you need agency. And with your analysis you should still prove Zelensky’s responsibility from “Ukrainian children are killed by Russian soldiers” and not from “Ukrainian children die”, if you want to make sense to me. — neomac
Children don’t get a saying in anything because they are children. — neomac
So you wanted to suggest a third strategy opposing Russian and American expansionism and now you want Zelensky gone — neomac
the flaw in your reasoning lies in the fact that your moral claims do not take into account what Ukrainians value, as I do. For example, if I were Ukrainian... — neomac
There are unavoidable evidences and compelling reasons for mistrust. — neomac
> I'm not talking about Russia and Ukraine, I'm talking about all parties. That should include the US and Europe who are funding the war. they can't pretend to be innocent bystanders. Notwithstanding that, whether negotiations are taking place is not the question. Whether you support them is the question.
OK what do you mean by “support”? Show me how you would apply it to your position. — neomac
> Again, whether they 'try to help' is what's in question.
> Does a supply of weapons help?
Well Zelensky is asking for military assistance to the West, and the West is supplying it. And it’s primarily up to the Ukrainians to assess if they get enough help. — neomac
> Is there any evidence that that's even the intention?
That’s irrelevant. I’m talking about moral reasons to help — neomac
> You seem pretty clear that Putin's tactic (a gross brutish bombs-and-guns approach) is morally worse than, say America's (a more sophisticated economic domination causing death by famines, ill-health, and 'collateral damage' in their proxy wars).
Quote where I said that. Or show me how you could possibly infer such a claim from what I said. — neomac
from a more concrete and personal point of view there is a big difference in how this influence is deployed: e.g. Isis might want to put their flag in our decapitated head, while the US might want to put their flag on the sandwich we are eating. Do you see the difference? Because if you don’t, I do and I value it. — neomac
Bombing hospitals, civilians and children is not morally defensible, giving stingers and javelins to Ukrainians that want to continue to fight against Russia also with stingers and javelins is morally defensible. — neomac
I was referring only to these parts: — neomac
If we are talking about a negotiation between 2 parties, a third strategy that is opposing both should take into account what both parties demand, which you didn’t. — neomac
since accepting Putin’s demands (as they are) will empower Putin, then there would be more risks against the West, this is what needs to be opposed. — neomac
Your method to decide which expansionism to support is based on counting deaths, directly or indirectly provoked by expansionist activities (whatever they are). So since the US has indirectly provoked more deaths in Yemen than Russia has directly provoked in Ukraine, then we should side with Russia.
If that is in short your line of reasoning, then let me stress once more that, from your own way of framing things, you are not opposing 2 expansionisms, you are supporting Russian expansionism — neomac
I don’t even get why your moral assessment of competing great powers should be limited to the number deaths or misery provoked in proxy wars and not also in the standard of life and prosperity within their established sphere of influence. Why aren’t these metrics worth taking into account for moral considerations? — neomac
If expansionism is a causal reaction to threats, since there are always direct and indirect multi-causal links between competing powers’ perceived security threats and reactions then all powers in competition are potentially causally accountable of not some but all current deaths provoked by power struggles, so there is no reason to side with one or the other based on death counts. You could still claim that it's not matter of taking side anyways, just matter of supporting whatever it takes to end the war in the shortest term, but then would you support as well Palestinians submitting to whatever Israeli demands are and Yemeni submitting to whatever Saudi Arabian demands to end hostilities as soon as possible? — neomac
> Just because we have a moral reason to oppose Putin's expansionism, doesn't' give us free reign to do so by any method available.
So what? — neomac
> Where have you 'taken into account' the fact that the US and Europe are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths too?
Nowhere obviously, because I’m talking about the war between Ukraine and Russia. — neomac
This should be obvious... — ssu
Yes the the geopolitical tensions between the US and Russia continue to play out. Following the fall of the USSR this point was always going to be reached, the difference being just where the dividing lines will be on the map. It’s looking like a new iron curtain will divide east Ukraine. If NATO hadn’t expanded, a newly moneyed Russia would have.Chomsky
But that doesn't matter at all, as you have pointed out that you don't care about Russian politics. — ssu
That's a load of crap and you know it. — Benkei
Now. After 8 years of extensive NATO training and aid to a country that has already been fighting a limited war for 8 years. In 2014 the Russians waltzed into Crimea without nearly a shot fired. Then the Ukrainian armed forces was capable to deploy only 6 000 men to the field in it's entirety. So weak they were then.On the other hand we have every military scholar telling you that Russian control of Ukraine is impossible. — Benkei
The promises made to the Soviet Union, actually, which Ukraine was a part of. But don't let the little details bother your case against the US and in the defense of victim Russia, which was "forced" to act this way. There was no other way, of course.the promises made in the 90s to Russia — Benkei
Oh you don't get it? The political prisoners that number now more than during the end of Soviet Union doesn't tell anything to you? The imperialist right-wing demagoguery coming from Russia doesn't mean anything to you? Seems like it's totally similar choices for you either to be under "Bidenland" or "Putinland".I don't get why you're still under the impression that living within the imperial reach of one empire is better than another. — Benkei
Fuck those who are only against the wrongdoings of the US, who not only fall silent of other similar wrongdoings, but become actively apologists and defenders of those actions because they are perpetrated by those who oppose the US. Talk about accepting willingly the thinking that the enemies of my enemies being my friends. The inability to condemn both sides when they do bad things is so surprising and so telling.Fuck Europe for the pansy pussies they are and the US for being a warmongering genocidal empire. — Benkei
False and conspiratorial narratives pushed by some American conservative politicians and media figures about Russia’s brutal invasion of Ukraine have bolstered and created synergies with the Kremlin’s legendary disinformation machine, experts on information manipulation say.
But even though Russia has embraced and promoted American disinformation, as well as the Kremlin’s own much larger stock of Ukraine war falsehoods, both brands have been widely debunked by experts and most media outlets, underscoring Moscow’s setbacks in the information war.
Led by Tucker Carlson at Fox News, a few Republican rightwingers in Congress, and some conservative activists, a spate of comments that have disparaged Ukraine and its president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, and echoed other Russian war disinformation have been recycled by Moscow, say experts.
A feedback loop between the Kremlin and parts of the American right has been palpable since the war’s start in February, which Moscow falsely labeled as a “special military operation” aimed at stopping “genocide” of Russians in Ukraine and “denazification” – two patently bogus charges that drew widespread international criticism.
Still, the influential figure of Carlson has pushed several false narratives to millions of Fox News viewers that have been eagerly embraced and recycled by Moscow and parts of the American right. Last month, for example, Carlson touted rightwing conspiracies that attempted to link Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, to a discredited allegation that the US financed bioweapons labs in Ukraine.
On a separate front, two Republican congressional conservatives, Madison Cawthorn and Marjorie Taylor Greene, delighted Moscow last month by condemning Zelenskiy without evidence in conspiracy-ridden terms that sparked some bipartisan criticism. Cawthorn called Zelenskiy a “thug” and his government “incredibly corrupt”, while Greene similarly charged that Zelenskiy was “corrupt”.
Further, the former congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, a Democrat, last month attempted to soften and spin Putin’s onerous crackdown on independent media in Russia, where reporters and other citizens now can face prison terms of 15 years for not toeing the Kremlin’s Orwellian war line and for spreading what Moscow deems “fake” news about its Ukraine invasion. Gabbard made the wild claim that “what we’re seeing happening here [in America] is not so different from what we’re seeing happening in Russia”. — the Guardian
Fuck those who are only against the wrongdoings of the US, who not only fall silent of other similar wrongdoings, but become actively apologists and defenders of those actions because they are perpetrated by those who oppose the US. Talk about accepting willingly the thinking that the enemies of my enemies being my friends. The inability to condemn both sides when they do bad things is so surprising and so telling. — ssu
I agree, but let's not limit ourselves to one form of government. Let's look at all forms of government. Do they teach effective criticism of government? Do they teach about money at all — FreeEmotion
Teach them to ask this question in schools, for a change:
Is “democracy” really America’s cause? Is “autocracy” really America’s great adversary in the battle for the future?
Not all autocrats, after all, are our enemies, nor are all democrats our reliable friends. — FreeEmotion
epistemic responsibility — Christoffer
Guilt by Association Fallacy — Baden
Doesn't that rhetoric sound familiar? We can read the exact same kind of crap here, written by the likes of Benkei, @Isaac or mage @boethius. — Olivier5
That's my whole point! It doesn't mean that I wouldn't criticize (or haven't criticized) NATO when it has done stupid things. But dare to say something about Russia's actions or intentions, and obviously you're a NATO jihadist in need of therapy.That doesn't mean I can't criticize NATO too. — Baden
I’m not sure the alternative to capitalism would have been any better. — Punshhh
Fuck those who are only against the wrongdoings of the US, who not only fall silent of other similar wrongdoings, but become actively apologists and defenders of those actions because they are perpetrated by those who oppose the US. Talk about accepting willingly the thinking that the enemies of my enemies being my friends. The inability to condemn both sides when they do bad things is so surprising and so telling. — ssu
From the link:
"A guilt by association fallacy occurs when someone connects an opponent to a demonized group of people or to a bad person in order to discredit his or her argument."
Doesn't that rhetoric sound familiar? We can read the exact same kind of crap here, written by the likes of Benkei, Isaac or mage @boethius.
— Olivier5
QED. — Baden
But is Olivier5 trying to smear me, Benkei and boethius by association with Carlson and Taylor Greene, or is he trying to smear Carlson and Taylor Greene by association with me, Benkei and boethius! — Isaac
Hypotheticals are difficult as you yourself implied, but simply use your head here, Benkei. I know you have one.Crimea never would've become a part of Russia if the US hadn't been meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine for decades already. — Benkei
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