But it is nevertheless evidence that this ‘agenda’ is highly variable, and that as self-aware persons we are not bound by the same agenda as our parents, nor even the adjusted agenda we were born and raised into. — Possibility
experiences they get out of the interaction themselves because they disagree with your claim that life sucks and that’s all there is to it. — Possibility
Because I also think that your moral indignation here is based on ignorance that is much more deliberate and harmful than that of any parent, — Possibility
and your pessimistic call to simply ‘gripe’ against a supposedly ‘forced agenda’ actually undermines antinatalism more than anything else. — Possibility
The potentiality of a person is NOT what you or I or their parents perceive it to be. Nor is it what the agenda or society dictates. It is what the person themselves perceives it to be - and it is more valuable as such than any iteration of being or ‘self’ that might be actualised and then judged by you according to some impossible moralistic stance of ‘zero potential harm’. — Possibility
You simply don't have an answer for why it is justified to make someone else go through the gauntlet of life. — schopenhauer1
But the agenda are the dictates of life (sociocultural economic way of surviving and overcoming dissatisfaction). So no, there aren't these magical variables, just contingencies in a situatedness of the ways of living that were forced upon a new person. — schopenhauer1
Because I also think that your moral indignation here is based on ignorance that is much more deliberate and harmful than that of any parent,
— Possibility
Assertion with no evidence examples to back it up or give any reasoning for the premise. — schopenhauer1
I’m NOT claiming that it’s justified and I’m not arguing FOR procreation. My position is non-moralistic. It is YOUR narrow view that all harm (intentional, ignorant and self-inflicted) is inherently immoral. I’m only saying the intention is NOT to force an agenda, as you claim, but to open it up to variation. — Possibility
‘Survival’ may be a dictate of life, but it is NOT a principle of conscious (potential) existence. At this level of awareness, the concept of ‘survival’ is only a limitation on actuality, not on perceived potential. A conscious existence is more than capable of acting in opposition to ‘survival’ - even as their potential for survival approaches a perceived upper OR lower limit - without necessarily resulting in death. Death is only actual at the moment a potential for survival reaches that limit of actuality. — Possibility
It is disrespecting the dignity of the person created for your selfish means to create a being in your likeness (even if that likeness is a dynamic independent blah blah.. it is still trying to direct another being into a direction one had in mind, even if it the parameters of the direction are wider). At the end of the day, the child will encounter the sufferings of the dissatisfactions of living, and the contingent harms that come with the everyday. It is wanting to see another being go through the gauntlet of life, and thus making the political decision for that child that they must comply (or die), as the will of the parent has thus created for them. — schopenhauer1
That leaves a lot of room for contingency. If I take action that prevents me from being economically productive, I can sustain this action for weeks or months, and I won’t necessarily starve to death. I can live for years hand-to-mouth on a desert island or give all my time and money to the poor and depend entirely on charity. I can sit in meditation for hours on end without even coming close to death, or I can deliberately end my own life in any number of ways. I can practise raising my heart rate to its maximum and keeping it there, or holding my breath for several minutes, without necessarily compromising my survival. The more we understand about our upper and lower limits of potential and how they relate to possibility, the more varied our choices that are at least temporarily opposed to this so-called ‘agenda’. — Possibility
And I can raise a child to recognise that their potential and value in relation to possibility varies well beyond any limited actuality, to the point where there is no ‘forced agenda’ to be concerned with, only upper and lower limits in actualising potential to be conscious of - apart from their own fears and desires, and the moralising judgements of onlookers or society in general. But it is FAR more efficient to simply recognise this in ourselves, and make use of what limited actuality we have in maximising our collaborative potential to reduce suffering in the world, not just minimise our own. — Possibility
It is selfish on the part of the parent to try to play tinkerer.. trying to direct here, and adjust there, and protect hither and think that by just doing the right inputs, they will create a child that will be a self-actualizing/society contributing blah blah blah. It is disrespecting the dignity of the person created for your selfish means to create a being in your likeness — schopenhauer1
Even though your moral judgement of parents is based on an assumption that they evidently decide to enforce a potential agenda upon a potential child - none of which you will admit even exists prior to actualisation, let alone a prior decision or any thoughts towards it. Where is the concrete evidence of a parent’s prior knowledge of either agenda or child on which to base the supposed culpability of their decision? — Possibility
You would need to admit this evident potential prior to actuality in order to accuse parents of moral culpability in procreation. In acknowledging this potential as evident, you would have to also acknowledge evident potential to choose actions against the agenda (as described above), rendering it ‘not forced’. — Possibility
Variation doesn't negate the limiting factors of dissatisfaction/survival. Your whole "we have so many choices" thing is not justification for the broader limiting factor. — schopenhauer1
Right so you are doing what I said in the beginning of my response.. Just demonstrating that people will tend towards the averages, doesn't mean that THUS we have proved anything about the dictates.. It is still forcing dictates on someone. This is besides the point that once born, people will tend towards the middle of the extreme versions of lifestyle to minimize stress on themselves. — schopenhauer1
Basically, you have failed to overcome my objections raised in that earlier post a couple pages ago. You are just sounding like people need to be born so they can self-actualize and follow Maslow's Hierarchy (as predicted).. You can obfuscate by talking about limits and potential..but it amounts to about the same. Maslow also never defined what self-actualizing is.. but it amounts to what you are saying and I object to yours as his reasons for the excuse to give people "opportunities". The illusion of choices does not excuse the collateral damage and dissatisfaction/survival dictates (that tends to averages within those boundaries anyways). — schopenhauer1
But it is enough that they think this life is "good enough" for someone else to live. — schopenhauer1
It does negate the limitation as ‘forced’ - the limiting factors apply to life, not to our capacity to act against these factors. Dissatisfaction and survival factors can influence and obscure but not eliminate choices we are able to make that take us beyond these limits. — Possibility
People, once born, are wasting valuable resources if all they’re going to do is avoid dissatisfaction and survive. The fact that you didn’t choose to be born does not excuse your decision to continue wasting precious energy on complaining about it with no intention of changing your part in the system. This has NOTHING to do with self-actualisation. If you don’t consider your own life to consist of opportunities, then the MORAL action would be to give all of your resources and potential to those who will use it to its fullest, not continue to piss it away on yourself. Because it’s honestly not about your ‘self’. There is no moral value to an individual who cannot or will not choose to exist in relation to the world. — Possibility
It is selfish on the part of the parent to try to play tinkerer.. trying to direct here, and adjust there, and protect hither and think that by just doing the right inputs, they will create a child that will be a self-actualizing/society contributing blah blah blah. It is disrespecting the dignity of the person created for your selfish means to create a being in your likeness (even if that likeness is a dynamic independent blah blah.. i — schopenhauer1
I guess my points landed. — schopenhauer1
I noticed no response. I guess my points landed. — schopenhauer1
On the contrary.
I think you vastly underestimate just how alien your -- and Schopenhauer's -- ideas are to most people. — baker
Ligotti, Thomas. The Conspiracy against the Human Race: A Contrivance of Horror (pp. 172-174). Hippocampus Press. Kindle Edition.In the workaday world, complainers will not go far. When someone asks how you are doing, you had better be wise enough to reply, “I can’t complain.” If you do complain, even justifiably, people will stop asking how you are doing. Complaining will not help you succeed and influence people. You can complain to your physician or psychiatrist because they are paid to hear you complain. But you cannot complain to your boss or your friends, if you have any. You will soon be dismissed from your job and dropped from the social register. Then you will be left alone with your complaints and no one to listen to them. Perhaps then the message will sink into your head: If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do. That is the way to get yourself to feel good enough for long enough and stop you from complaining for good, as any self-improvement book can affirm. But should you not improve, someone must assume the blame. And that someone will be you. This is monumentally so if you are a pessimist or a depressive. Should you conclude that life is objectionable or that nothing matters— do not waste our time with your nonsense. We are on our way to the future, and the philosophically disheartening or the emotionally impaired are not going to hinder our progress. If you cannot say something positive, or at least equivocal, keep it to yourself. Pessimists and depressives need not apply for a position in the enterprise of life. You have two choices: Start thinking the way God and your society want you to think or be forsaken by all. The decision is yours, since you are a free agent who can choose to rejoin our fabricated world or stubbornly insist on … what? That we should mollycoddle non-positive thinkers like you or rethink how the whole world transacts its business? That we should start over from scratch? Or that we should go extinct? Try to be realistic. We did the best we could with the tools we had. After all, we are only human, as we like to say. Our world may not be in accord with nature’s way, but it did develop organically according to our consciousness, which delivered us to a lofty prominence over the Creation. The whole thing just took on a life of its own, and nothing is going to stop it anytime soon. There can be no starting over and no going back. No major readjustments are up for a vote. And no melancholic head-case is going to bad-mouth our catastrophe. The universe was created by the Creator, damn it. We live in a country we love and that loves us back. We have families and friends and jobs that make it all worthwhile. We are somebodies, not a bunch of nobodies without names or numbers or retirement plans. None of this is going to be overhauled by a thought criminal who contends that the world is not doubleplusgood and never will be. Our lives may not be unflawed— that would deny us a better future to work toward— but if this charade is good enough for us, then it should be good enough for you. So if you cannot get your mind right, try walking away. You will find no place to go and no one who will have you. You will find only the same old trap the world over. Lighten up or leave us alone. You will never get us to give up our hopes. You will never get us to wake up from our dreams. We are not contradictory beings whose continuance only worsens our plight as mutants who embody the contorted logic of a paradox. Such opinions will not be accredited by institutions of authority or by the middling run of humanity. To lay it on the line, whatever thoughts may enter your chemically imbalanced brain are invalid, inauthentic, or whatever dismissive term we care to hang on you, who are only “one of those people.” So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line. If you are not as strong as Samson— that no-good suicide and slaughterer of Philistines— then get loaded to the gills and return to the trap. Keep your medicine cabinet and your liquor cabinet well stocked, just like the rest of us. Come on and join the party. No pessimists or depressives invited. Do you think we are morons? We know all about those complaints of yours. The only difference is that we have sense enough and feel good enough for long enough not to speak of them. Keep your powder dry and your brains blocked. Our shibboleth: “Up the Conspiracy and down with Consciousness.” — Ligotti
On the contrary.
I think you vastly underestimate just how alien your -- and Schopenhauer's -- ideas are to most people.
— baker
No I’m aware on a daily basis. — schopenhauer1
Some of Schopenhauer's best insights were his ideas about the centrality of boredom. Boredom sits at the heart of the human condition.
If we were in a hand-to-mouth survival situation, that is all we would be consumed with...the means to putting food in our mouth, getting hydrated, and finding comfortable shelter from the elements.
In an industrialized, complex network of production and consumption, this is all atomized into our little "work" and "leisure" pursuits. On the other side of the spectrum, waiting for us is boredom. Boredom lays bare that existence isn't anything BUT striving-after. We strive to survive and be comfortable. Then, if we do not have any entertainment pursuits to occupy our mental space, we may get existential. "Why are we doing this repetitive upkeep, maintenance, and thrashing about?" It becomes apparent about the malignantly useless (as another author has characterized it).
A pretty face, a noble pursuit, a puzzle, an ounce of pleasure.. we all try to submerge in these entertainments to not face the existential boredom straight on. That would be too much to dwell in for too long. We design goals, and virtues and reasons, and entertainments, and standards to meet, and trying to contribute to "something". We cannot fall back on the default of existence- the boredom.
So what is one to do? If suicide isn't a real option, there is only the perpetual cycle. The illusion is that it can be broken. Schopenhauer deigned freedom by asceticism. That was a nice consolation-hope to provide, but it's simply training the mind to live with the existential striving-after more easily. That is all- a mental technique. It is not a metaphysical escape hatch. We are stuck until we are not. — schopenhauer1
Then why this thread? — baker
Because I am aware of the ignorance and bringing it to light? — schopenhauer1
These are core to my philosophical viewpoints, so why wouldn't I discuss them at length with those willing to engage in dialogue? — schopenhauer1
But there is noone willing to engage in dialogue. Exactly like Ligotti says above. Seems ironic then to pursue the matter. — baker
Anyway, I sometimes have the impression (but it could be just me) that you're still trying to find an alternative to existential pessimism. That perhaps you're looking for the folks who comply with the Agenda to convince you that it's worth it after all. I mean, I have my doubts about existential pessimism, and I couldn't profess it with the certainty you do. — baker
No. In reality, we are *NOT* free to do what we want/like, or hope, dream, expect, etc etc etc. Real life / real world / reality is very limiting in what we can do (or be). Let me ask you for example: How many of you are trapped everyday in a job or work that you don't like? And that's just one main example. I still even haven't mentioned about if you have chronic pain/disease/illness for example, it will obviously become a lot/much worse.
I think people like me also have our own valid (& logical, rational) reasons to be a pessimist (or agreeing with philosophical pessimism), when looking at the world, life, (human's) society, existence, & basically the cold, harsh, cruel reality around us everyday (I still even haven't discussed about depressive realism, antinatalism, pro-mortalism, efilism, suicide, etc etc). — niki wonoto
The last posts of schopenhauer1-Possibility -debate reminds me that "Go then kill yourself" -attitude.
And same time these people (I´m not saying Possibility is one of them) find very odd when I tell, or have told elsewhere that people who present suicide as an option; that usually people under age of ten or even fifteen don´t have capabilities doing suicide. — Antinatalist
The potential to suffer? — Agent Smith
Sure, but there’s more to potentiality in relation to being than a binary value, or even a linear continuum. Intentionality is an integrated, four-dimensional relation of effort and attention. You can’t reduce that accurately to ‘the potential to suffer’ - not without ignoring or excluding a whole lot of information. This is what is happening here — Possibility
The last posts of schopenhauer1-Possibility -debate reminds me that "Go then kill yourself" -attitude.
And same time these people (I´m not saying Possibility is one of them) find very odd when I tell, or have told elsewhere that people who present suicide as an option; that usually people under age of ten or even fifteen don´t have capabilities doing suicide.
— Antinatalist
Then you’re reading it through a lens. A fourteen year old certainly has this capability. — Possibility
Someone under the age of ten usually lacks a sufficient self-concept to make such a decision based on a preference for non-being. Either way, it wouldn’t be an intellectual decision based on awareness of an individual self - the kind you’re claiming we should be entitled to before we’re even born.
So, when it arises as an option, what prevents you from taking it?
It is this question I’d like an honest answer to. Instead, I’m accused of gaslighting, while my position is misrepresented and distorted. I support antinatalism, but not this opinion that existence sucks.
My attitude is not ‘go kill yourself then’ - I think there is a gap in understanding (or just blatant ignorance) when someone argues so strongly for non-being as a preferred option, but not for actual beings. And then denies the existence of potential structures that enable actual, self-conscious beings to choose beyond a reductionist binary structure of ‘comply or die’, even as they claim to make a third choice of ‘rebellion by griping’. — Possibility
What's your opinion of the following?
1. In life there's potential for suffering and joy.
2. It's impossible, at the moment, to ensure the actualization of joy sans suffering.
3. On the whole, suffering > joy. Ask a person whether s/he wants their pain taken away from, or more joy be added to, their life? I bet they'd want the former (pain taken away).
Ergo,
4. Antinatalism. — Agent Smith
The possibility of suicide of course exists. Once born, however, a human being is highly unlikely to have the sufficient skills to commit suicide before the age of five – often, in fact, not before turning ten or even fifteen. When this wish arises and the individual aims to fulfil it, surrounding people strive to prevent the suicide almost without exceptions if they only can. Furthermore, a vast number of highly retarded people exist who, due to their condition, will never really be able to commit suicide.
One must in any case consider the possibility of having to live a perhaps highly agonizing period of life before suicide, due to a choice – that of creating life – for which the individual him/herself is not responsible. And most importantly, not even suicide guarantees that the individual will achieve the state or non-state where s/he “was” before the decision of having a child was made. (Be it complete non-existence, for example.) — Antinatalist
This idea is probably a component of the Transhumanism manifesto, the movement being, by and large, focused on the abolishment of suffering. — Agent Smith
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