Forgive me, I got tired of endlessly repeating the same point, that a discussion between gender and sex is natural and quite common. — praxis

Forgive me, but I fail to see where you actually made any point, much less repeated one. If you'd like to continue, educate me on your points by answering my questions: is physiology a necessary part, if not the only part, of one's gender? What is the difference between the literal and non-literal meaning of "man"/"woman"?

Once upon a time there was a man named Frank. In all appearance Frank was like any man, often wearing jeans and a raggedy old t-shirt he bought at Brittany Spears concert back in 1998, and in the manner of any dude would frequently scratch his balls, in public. But inside, behind the shallow facade performed for the public eye, Frank was gentle, sensitive, and downright emo to the core. People who got to know him, really know him, would say the that he “has the heart of a woman.” They meant this figuratively, of course.

One day while downing brewskies with his buds in the man cave, Frank felt a sharp pain in his chest. His unhealthy mannish lifestyle had finally caught up with him and he was having a heart attack. He was rushed to the hospital and, long story short, eventually got a heart transplant. The donor was young woman that was killed in a motorcycle accident the day before. After the transplant, people who got to know Frank, really know him, would say that he “has the heart of a woman.” They meant this literally, of course.

Once upon a time there was a man named Frank. In all appearance Frank was like any man, often wearing jeans and a raggedy old t-shirt he bought at Brittany Spears concert back in 1998, and in the manner of any dude would frequently scratch his balls, in public. But inside, behind the shallow facade performed for the public eye, Frank was gentle, sensitive, and downright emo to the core. People who got to know him, really know him, would say the that he “has the heart of a woman.” They meant this figuratively, of course.

One day while downing brewskies with his buds in the man cave, Frank felt a sharp pain in his chest. His unhealthy mannish lifestyle had finally caught up with him and he was having a heart attack. He was rushed to the hospital and, long story short, eventually got a heart transplant. The donor was young woman that was killed in a motorcycle accident the day before. After the transplant, people who got to know Frank, really know him, would say that he “has the heart of a woman.” They meant this literally, of course. — praxis

:roll: So is a heart part of what makes one a man or a woman, or is it some other part of the body? What makes some heart the heart of a woman or a man? Is it something about the heart, or something about the rest of the body?

It might be more interesting to get Nickolasgaspar's opinion here. He has explained how we are caused to act for our own wellbeing, and that as a result all we need to do is measure wellbeing - in terms of brain chemistry, it seems - in order to work out what that wellbeing is, and so solve all the problems we previously considered to be questions of "ethics"

So here's an opportunity for Nick to explain the practicality of that theory. In my old-fashion ways, I might pose the moral question "ought we use the word "woman" for a man who has transitioned to a woman?" I'm sure @Isaac and @Tom Storm would be interested in hearing how it works in a practical situation.

Show us how your ideas will objectively set us on the straight path. — Banno

-You are talking about politeness not morality.

Finally it has reached even this place. The postmodern woke sillyness. — ssu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

There's nothing "postmodern" about it.

Welcome back.

I am asking you to show how to apply your moral considerations in a particular case. How best to treat transgender folk?

I wonder really, what they need that kinds of statistics. Of course the utter hypocrisy is that they also ask for the whole social security number in the same application, which actually tells the sex of the person (at birth, at least) quite clearly, if you just know how to read the numbers. So guess the statistics they want to know is about how many don't think the sex at birth doesn't represent them, have had a sex change or something. — ssu

Imagine getting your panties in this much of a bunch because you are given more choices which, ultimately, don't even affect you one iota.

People like to talk about "wokeness" as a result of snowflakesness or some such, but it's pretty clear wokeness is what brings out pathetic, fragile egos like the above in spades as a reaction. This is probably the best argument for wokeness: it brings out to the fore those pathetic enough to care this much. You get to identify society's weakest, most contemptable beings.

Like a fellow human being? :D

Seriously, I think the big problem some people have here is simply down to how in society men and women are different and due to these differences people tend to act in certain ways towards each other. Men interacting with men, men interacting with women, a man interacting with women, and so on and so forth …

For someone trans, that is CLEARLY trans, this simply does not fit into common social interactions for many people - unless you live in the Manila or some other place where trans people are clearly a visible part of day-to-day life.

So how should we interact is probably the wrong question. It is more about how can we interact more often so as for such questions to become background noise like ‘how should men interact with women, or …’

I imagine for a number of generations to come people will have little to no interaction with anyone trans. Once CRISPR does what it is going to do the whole conversation is going to shift dramatically … so we have a few generations to yet so I just suggest we accept people believe themselves to be such and such, just like we should accept that someone who feels like they are on fire when they are not and know they are not STILL feels like they are on fire!

I recall, back in the early eighties, some close Nepalese friends puzzling as to where Australia's Meti where. I didn't understand the question for another twenty years... — Banno

:lol:

Methinks trans people are confused. There's a difference between I want to be a man/woman and I am a man/woman. For instance, there are young teenage boys who want to be Justin Bieber or some other singing sensation, but they, for certain, don't believe that they are Justin Bieber.

By transsexual logic if someone wants to be Mickey Mouse, s/he is Mickey Mouse.

Like a fellow human being? — I like sushi

Well, yes.

@Nickolasgaspar presented a particular approach to ethics, which I think somewhat problematic. The suggestion that he show how it can be applied remains open.

So as per transsexual logic, if I think/feel I'm a beaver, I am a beaver?! :chin:

Methinks trans people are confused. There's a difference between I want to be a man/woman and I am a man/woman. For instance, there are young teenage boys who want to be Justin Bieber or some other singing sensation, but they, for certain, don't believe that they are Justin Bieber.

By transsexual logic if someone wants to be Mickey Mouse, s/he is Mickey Mouse. — Agent Smith

A man my thing he is a woman or vice versa, but there is no way for them to prove it :smile:

:ok:

Knowing you are not x and feeling like you are x are entirely different things.

I remember watching a documentary about a guy who felt like his leg was not his leg. He had to go through several stages of psychological evaluation to have his leg amputated. Sounds very strange on the surface of it but when you listen to how it felt the only other option would have been to have brain surgery (not that they knew how to fix it) … needless to say losing a leg was the better option.

There is a rather large difference between a beaver and human than there is between a male human and a female human.

A man my thing he is a woman or vice versa, but there is no way for them to prove it — SpaceDweller

Theists have been able to live without proof of their beliefs/feelings about gods since we left the forests.
I don't think a man who identifies as a woman feels a need to prove their 'inner gender,' to anyone.
I think that current and future transhuman technology will add to the fog which continues to gather around gender. I was born as a male, I have lived as a male and will die as a male but my maleness has became less and less important to me the older I get. Perhaps that is progressive. I suppose that will always be, as I suppose it should always be, in the judgment of everyone else, including me.

Suppose there are identical twins, A and B; it doesn't get more similar than that. If then A thinks she's B, then A is B?!

There's something quite odd about transsexual logic in my humble opinion.

About the guy who had leg issues, do you have a reference?

Most interesting. — Ms. Marple

Read again? It doesn’t matter what the physical truth of the matter is if someone ‘feels’ a certain way they ‘feel’ that way. That is not the same as saying they truly believe they are that way … like with examples of people who ‘feel’ physical pain yet there is no physical reason for them to do so (phantom limbs etc.,.). We do not simply tell them ‘you don’t feel pain so stop complaining’ and they know the ‘pain’ is not coming from felt source of pain BUT it is still felt.

It is delusional when they say they ARE that way. It is not delusional to say you merely feel a certain way. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

No I don’t have the reference. Watched the documentary many years ago.

All I'm trying to get across here is that the transsexual argument boils down to:

1. I feel/think I'm a woman/man

Ergo,

2. I am a woman/man.

If you abstract the form, you get

3. I feel/think I'm an x.

Ergo,

4. I am an x.

Substitute x with anything under the sun and we see the folly of their "logic".

So your argument boils down to complete nonsense.

There are instances where people FEEL something yet KNOW that they are not physically the case. The woman who has had a burning sensation on her left arm for decades KNOWS her arm is not burnt or burning.

She does not walk around waving her arm around saying ‘my arm is burnt’ because she knows it is not.

Are so out of touch with basic argumentation that you think that ‘think’ and ‘feel’ are the same thing? Utterly ridiculous. Bye bye

If a male thinks he is a woman, the best he can do is to visit psychiatrist to at least learn why does he feel that way.

in psychiatry there is well known diagnosis for this illness, it's easy to google it out therefore mentioning doctor is not mocking.

However true problem is that them feeling it that way is more pleasant than asking doctor for help.

If I feel there is something wrong with my stomach or my head I'll go visit a doctor, and so should a person who thinks that he should change his genitalia.

EDIT:
diagnostic code is 302.50
that's clasified as mental disorder

Hello, I sent a message to you regarding something I think you had mentioned somewhere. I shall appreciate a response. Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Is homosexuality an ‘illness’ too? It was classed as such not so long ago.

Yes it is, it's classified as mental disorder, diagnostic code Z72.52 aka. "High risk homosexual behavior":

https://icd.codes/icd10cm/Z7252

Er, no. That is not stating that homosexuality is an illness.

Any more nonsense to offer?

in psychiatry, diseases are classified according to diagnostic codes.
for homosexuality it is Z72.52, for transsexuality it is 302.50

Where is this? In an African country or bible belt state. I don’t really regard either as an authority.

Hello, I checked my inbox and found no PM from you.
I will try to send a quick PM to you to establish a connection.

Disease classification is world wide accepted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_mental_disorders

Not by the APA certainly not in the UK nor would I imagine in most European Countries.

Where do you live in the world? UAE? Saudi Arabia?