I'm sorry we couldn't come to some kind of mutually satisfactory understanding of the situation. Bye!

Right, and heterosexuality is an illness because of https://icd.codes/icd10cm/Z7251

And having blood is an illness because of https://icd.codes/icd10cm/Z671

:roll:

If a male thinks he is a woman, the best he can do is to visit psychiatrist to at least learn why does he feel that way.
in psychiatry there is well known diagnosis for this illness, it's easy to google it out therefore mentioning doctor is not mocking.
However true problem is that them feeling it that way is more pleasant than asking doctor for help.
If I feel there is something wrong with my stomach or my head I'll go visit a doctor, and so should a person who thinks that he should change his genitalia — SpaceDweller

I held similar views in my youth. I was brought up in tough part of a city. We had many words for homosexuals you are probably familiar with. When I was around 14 (I think), I beat up a guy who was bigger and stronger than me. I did it because his brother told me to. The person I beat up was a homosexual. In my twenties, on nights out in the city center, there were occasions when the group I was with insulted or threatened those who came within our site who we judged as effeminate or such.
I am ashamed that I took part in such in my past. I will never do anything like that again.
I don't care about a person's gender anymore.
I have been very impressed indeed by the dignity of homosexual/trans/LGBTQ etc people and how they have organised in the western hemisphere in particular, and fought for equal treatment under the law. They dealt with the threat of AIDS and all of the abuse, threats and violence perpetrated against them by young idiots like myself and much worse than I, and they have maintained their dignity. In my opinion, they utterly defeated the viewpoints I held all the way up to my mid-twenties and they will continue to gain equality globally.

Where is this? In an African country or bible belt state. I don’t really regard either as an authority. — I like sushi

He's just completely misunderstanding the ICD. The Z codes are "factors influencing health status and contact with health services", not illnesses. For example, code Z02.6 is for when someone visits a health centre to be examined for insurance purposes and code Z68.22 is for an adult who has a healthy BMI of 22.0-22.9.

For someone who visits a health centre because they engage in high risk sexual behaviours, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual (likely to be screened for STIs) the codes are Z72.51, Z72.52, and Z72.53 respectively.

And the 302.50 code is from ICD 9 and corresponds to Z87.890 in ICD 10 which is the code for people who have a history of sex reassignment.

I suppose there must be an explanation on how to interpret these codes.
I only know that one code may refer to multiple diagnosis types.

they utterly defeated the viewpoints I held all the way up to my mid-twenties and they will continue to gain equality globally. — universeness

They are getting their equality but it seems only in the western world.

I suppose there must be an explanation on how to interpret these codes. — SpaceDweller

Yes, it's explained on that website: The Z codes are "factors influencing health status and contact with health services." It covers such things as blood type, BMI, and reasons for visiting a health service.

They are getting their equality but it seems only in the western world. — SpaceDweller

They have proven themselves to be a very resilient movement. Give them time.
The only way to prevent them from achieving their goals is to kill them all but that may include YOUR own or ANYONE's own current or future child. So better for us all if we accept all such people as equal to all people.

I remember watching a documentary about a guy who felt like his leg was not his leg

Yep, this is a documented disorder and it's not just for legs (although legs may be the most common). It's called body integrity identity disorder (BIID) or body integrity dysphoria. Its symptoms are:

[A] desire to have a sensory or physical disability, discomfort with being able-bodied

In some extreme cases, a person wants their entire spinal cord disconnected or removed. I believe the ethics of it are very complicated, especially considering the hippocratic oath. In fact, I have trouble differentiating between this disorder and gender affirming surgery (where, say, a "man" wants his penis removed and replaced with a vagina).

I think a lot of the arguments to justify allowing gender-affirming surgery could also be used to justify these sorts of amputations, and, by extension, assisted suicide or euthanasia (in the case of existential suffering). I have heard that one of the reasons all of these treatments are controversial is that they are some of the only psychological disorders that are treated with primarily physical, non-neurological, and non-reversible surgeries.

I have transgender buddies and of course will treat them/gender them the way they want to be treated. However I hesitate to call myself a "transgender ally" because at the end of the day it is hard for me to understand what justification will allow gender affirming surgery (which I don't really care about/doesn't affect me) but not be applied to medically assisted suicide in the case of no terminal illness (Something I feel strongly about, as I would have sought this out when I was suicidal for years but am now glad I did not).

And my point here was that the person was quite aware that he had a leg - not delusional. He ‘felt like’ the limb was not his own (and said so) and ‘knew’ that physically it was his limb but still wanted it removed.

The ‘logic’ used by the other person you mentioned claimed that ‘feeling’ is equivalent to ‘knowing/thinking’ something to be a true physical fact hence why I not responding to them for about a month - a little rule I have here that works well for me.

My gripe is a simple one. As far as I know, the only justification a transsexual man has for identifying himself as a man is that he feels/thinks he is a man. The absurdity of this transsexual logic is brought to the fore by applying it like so:

1. I feel/think I'm an elephant (man/woman)

Ergo,

2. I am an elephant (man/woman)!

Why is me going "I am an elephant" a delusion and a transsexual claiming "I am a man/woman" not? :chin:

By the way thanks for explaining BIID. Helpful!

Nickolasgaspar presented a particular approach to ethics, which I think somewhat problematic. The suggestion that he show how it can be applied remains open. — Banno

-What do you mean "it remains open". Judging(approving or disapproving) people's behavior and its affect on other members of their society is what Morality is all about. Why is this so difficult for you?
Sure there are grey areas where its not clear if we will need to "sacrifice" members for the well being of others and their society in general....but at least we have a real-life foundations where we can start producing objective evaluations.

I am asking you to show how to apply your moral considerations in a particular case. How best to treat transgender folk? — Banno

-Well why is this even a question???? Is Discrimination an option?
Would you want to live in a society where your sexuality defines the way you are treated.
Just make that question for every moral judgment in your life and tell me how it goes.
Just put yourself or your family's in the particular case you have troubles with.

My gripe is a simple one. As far as I know, the only justification a transsexual man has for identifying himself as a man is that he feels/thinks he is a man. The absurdity of this transsexual logic is brought to the fore by applying it like so:

1. I feel/think I'm an elephant (man/woman)

Ergo,

2. I am an elephant (man/woman)!

Why is me going "I am an elephant" a delusion and a transsexual claiming "I am a man/woman" not? :chin:

By the way thanks for explaining BIID. Helpful! — Agent Smith

The difference is that gender is a psychological identity but being an elephant isn't.

And the obviousness of ‘feeling/believing’ you are a man ‘trapped’ in a woman’s body (or vice versa) is acknowledging that you do not physically possess a penis and testicles.

The rest is kind of a true Scotsman argument. Someone born in Spain can be considered ‘Scottish’ if they grew up in Scotland in their early years I would say. I would argue against someone who has spent their entire life living in Spain without speaking a word of English suddenly moving to Scotland in their 20’s and declaring they are ‘Scottish’ to be somewhat delusional. The exception would be if they said, I know I Spanish but my whole life I have felt out of place and tried many things to feel at ease in my own skin. Then I visited many countries around the world and to my surprise found that ‘Scotland’ felt like home to me.

For the purpose of social acceptance immigrants are more readily treated as members of their adopted nations with far less resistance. I would imagine those resistant to accepting foreigners as fellow citizens are the ones with an ‘illness’ of a sort. I think it is called ‘tribalism’ :D

Note: Joke! I do not view ‘tribalism’ as an ‘illness’.

The difference is that gender is a psychological identity but being an elephant isn't — Michael

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Why do transsexuals want to change their sex?