-
Eskander
25How l view historical progress of western thought in a roundabout manner
Enlightenment --> Romanticism --> Realism --> Modernism --> Here
- It set a false dichotomy between faith and reason, cast religious authority and the sacred in negative light. The negative experience of Europe with the church led enlightenment thinkers to universalize the redundant function of religion in state function. The state effectively replaced the sovereignty of God in veneration and scope of power, giving birth to modern discipline based highly legalistic bureau-Technocratic-surveillance nation state ( a terrible nightmare )
The Romantic movement secularized religious content (metaphysics, ethics and aesthetics mostly ) which led to the birth of humanism and various social sciences. The progress of science had its impact on industrialization and life was improved significantly as far as material needs are concerned ( even if it wasn't available to everyone, it was made possible), the rebellion of romantic age thinkers-artists seemed immature. Realist attacked the escapist tendencies of the Romanticism and the rigid thinking of enlightenment era. They sought to show the world as it is with all its ugliness and beauty, truth and lies. But this movement lost its flavor, as any one dimensional movement
It's clear that as history unfolded, every movement tried to contend for itself as the foundation (intellectual, artistic, philosophical etc ) and there was a constant tug of war. Here, the Modernist comes along. He is displeased to see how every movement tries to establish a secure foundation to only see a rival force demolish it. The Modernist cure is the absence of a foundation, which ironically serves as a foundation when one studies and examines the emerging paradigm. For some of you, this has the flavor of post modernism but l want to group the meaning-free relativistic dizzying "post modernism" and modernism (early 20 century) in one group as its still an ongoing dialectic
Enough with abstraction, let's see where we stand. In our present age, l can easily list the main problems faced by people in the first world and the whole world eventually with the takeover of globalism
- Destruction of the natural habitat ( include global warming ) and a false sense of security that the society ( government and corporations ) responsible for its destruction will also find a cure
- Fragmentation of the self and the increased rate of depression, anxiety, angst. The alienation of the self and the lack of upward social-economic mobility due to the monopoly big multinational corporations over resources and government ( esp in developing countries, made really apparent during Covid ). This has led to a drop in birth rates as people don't want to put their child through this mess we have created.
- Radicalization of society into polar extremes along the vertical and horizontal axis. The sense of harmony required for a "healthy" society is disappearing, people live in conflict and prefer to engage in vitriolic argumentations in place of civil discussion .
- Included in radicalization is the emergence of 3-5 th wave of feminism and its counter reaction, Men's rights movement in the manosphere. Can a society function well if both genders are taught to resent and distrust each other ? Various studies have shown a disproportionate number of men not receiving their share of sexual intimacy, not to mention the imminent collapse of traditional masculine values. Women on the other hand feel less satisfied in the pursuit of non-traditional career oriented lifestyle but don't have a way out to balance the need of women to have a family.
I can go on and on but l feel the enlightenment movement has created a monster 400 years later. This Judeo-Christian western civilization isn't my inheritance, perhaps this gives rise to my bias but l have tried my very best to remain impartial. I can only dream of an alternative history, the Andalusian culture surviving the onslaught of reconquista or the legacy of the Abbasids surviving history. However, I can't be charged with nostalgia as l don't see any ancient civilization giving birth to an alternative world order in the foreseeable future. The only way left for me is to reject this civilization in its totality and embrace the life of a shepherd in a countryside, away from all the trouble and in peace with myself. However, many of you don't think this is the way to go, but do you see the light at the end of the tunnel ? -
Joshs
5.7kThis seems like the expulsion from eden story retold. You praise the intellectual insights obtained via the development of Western culture and yet claim to be alienated from that culture. Your having been born in a non-Western country adds to your feeling of alienation. But is the solution a return to Eden, that is , a return to the ‘blissful’ ignorance of pre-modern society? You say you “don’t see any ancient civilization giving birth to an alternative world order in the foreseeable future”. Does that mean you would wish for such a prospect even if you don’t think it is likely to happen? If you acknowledge legitimate insights contributed by modern thought, do you think these can be ignored even if we want to return to a simpler world?
The only way left for me is to reject this civilization in its totality and embrace the life of a shepherd in a countryside, away from all the trouble and in peace with myself. — Eskander
It seems to me that you under-appreciate the extent to which you embody modern Western thinking, regardless of the fact that you are from a non-Western culture, and that you feel alienated from the contemporary world.
Your alienation is a quintessentially modern alienation, and can even be argued to be part of the very definition of modernity. So embracing the life of a shepherd in the countryside would be not so much an escape from modern thinking but rather a particular expression of it. You are a kindred spirit of Thoreau, Gauguin and Rousseau. Any solution would have to come
from within the resources of modernity itself rather than in an imagined rejection of it, which is only an opposition within the frame of modernity. -
Ciceronianus
3kThe only way left for me is to reject this civilization in its totality and embrace the life of a shepherd in a countryside, away from all the trouble and in peace with myself. — Eskander
Then be a shepherd. -
Agent Smith
9.5kThen be a shepherd. — Ciceronianus
The shepherd features prominently in Christianity. I have a feeling that the OP meant that figuratively. If not, sorry for intrusion. -
Tom Storm
9.1kI can go on and on but l feel the enlightenment movement has created a monster 400 years later. This Judeo-Christian western civilization isn't my inheritance, perhaps this gives rise to my bias but l have tried my very best to remain impartial. — Eskander
I've heard people make this and similar arguments for decades - I can't imagine anyone but a modern person, who is bathed in sentimental understanding of the past and a particularly slanted representation of the present, make it. It's the old 'back to Eden' trope. There was a book called Humanism The Wreck of Western Culture by sociologist John Carroll that provided a similar academic version of this thesis.
Prosperous modern people have often moved to the country or joined communes, or decided to live off the grid as a 'remedy' for the present era. I understand the power of this idea and acknowledge that it might provide some peace, if not boredom. I suspect that the recent and enduring cult of authenticity and hipster artisanal products is another expression of this impulse. As was Transcendentalism in the 19th century. -
Joshs
5.7k
Prosperous modern people have often moved to the country or joined communes, or decided to live off the grid as a 'remedy' for the present era. I understand the power of this idea and acknowledge that it might provide some peace, if not boredom. I suspect that the recent and enduring cult of authenticity and hipster artisanal products is another expression of this impulse. As was Transcendentalism in the 19th century. — Tom Storm
Made me think of the Eagles song, Last Resort:
She came from Providence
One in Rhode Island
Where the old world shadows hang
Heavy in the air
She packed her hopes and dreams
Like a refugee
Just as her father came across the sea
She heard about a place
People were smilin'
They spoke about the red man's way
And how they loved the land
And they came from everywhere
To the Great Divide
Seeking a place to stand
Or a place to hide
Down in the crowded bars
Out for a good time
Can't wait to tell you all
What it's like up there
And they called it paradise
I don't know why
Somebody laid the mountains low
While the town got high
Then the chilly winds blew down
Across the desert
Through the canyons of the coast
To the Malibu
Where the pretty people play
Hungry for power
To light their neon way
Give them things to do
Some rich men came and raped the land
Nobody caught 'em
Put up a bunch of ugly boxes
And Jesus people bought 'em
And they called it paradise
The place to be
They watched the hazy sun
Sinking in the sea
You can leave it all behind
Sail to Lahaina
Just like the missionaries did
So many years ago
They even brought a neon sign
"Jesus is coming"
Brought the white man's burden down
Brought the white man's reign
Who will provide the grand design?
What is yours and what is mine?
'Cause there is no more new frontier
We have got to make it here
We satisfy our endless needs
And justify our bloody deeds
In the name of destiny
And in the name of God
And you can see them there
On Sunday morning
Stand up and sing about
What it's like up there
They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise
Kiss it goodbye -
Ciceronianus
3kThe shepherd features prominently in Christianity. I have a feeling that the OP meant that figuratively. If not, sorry for intrusion. — Agent Smith
I suppose he can be a Christian shepard, then. Or a lamb, an agnus dei. -
SpaceDweller
520
old timeless wisdom which doesn't go out of scope :smile:A tree is known by its fruits
What we are witnessing is social and moral degradation. -
Joshs
5.7k
What we are witnessing is social and moral degradation. — SpaceDweller
“I'm a Catholic whore, currently enjoying congress out of wedlock with my black Jewish boyfriend who works at a military abortion clinic. So, hail Satan, and have a lovely afternoon” (Colin Firth, Kingsman) -
Eskander
25
This seems like the expulsion from eden story retold. You praise the intellectual insights obtained via the development of Western culture and yet claim to be alienated from that culture. Your having been born in a non-Western country adds to your feeling of alienation. But is the solution a return to Eden, that is , a return to the ‘blissful’ ignorance of pre-modern society? You say you “don’t see any ancient civilization giving birth to an alternative world order in the foreseeable future”. Does that mean you would wish for such a prospect even if you don’t think it is likely to happen? If you acknowledge legitimate insights contributed by modern thought, do you think these can be ignored even if we want to return to a simpler world?
I've heard people make this and similar arguments for decades - I can't imagine anyone but a modern person, who is bathed in sentimental understanding of the past and a particularly slanted representation of the present, make it. It's the old 'back to Eden' trope. There was a book called Humanism The Wreck of Western Culture by sociologist John Carroll that provided a similar academic version of this thesis.
Prosperous modern people have often moved to the country or joined communes, or decided to live off the grid as a 'remedy' for the present era. I understand the power of this idea and acknowledge that it might provide some peace, if not boredom. I suspect that the recent and enduring cult of authenticity and hipster artisanal products is another expression of this impulse. As was Transcendentalism in the 19th century.
I'm definitely not the first person to take this stance and l won't be the last one. I use the tools/understanding developed by western civilization to criticize itself as it's more accessible and understandable. However, this doesn't undermine my criticism as many people have criticized western civilization from an alien point of view ( in the perspective of westerners ) and reached a similar conclusion .l can go down that line easily as l am familiar with my own civilization but it will create resentment, tribalistic opposition... as it often happens. You can nevertheless take my criticism as a product of postmodern or post post modernism etc
My solution ( anarcho primitivism or whatever they will call it ) isn't THE solution in demand though it can offer temporary relief, it's more of a cry. We will never go back to Eden and that's not the real source of discomfort. The present world order is a nightmare from every perspective, surely we can do better. For westerners, l would advise them to reconstruct a new historical vision from pre-enlightenment era to the present before it's too late. The Confucian civilization and the Islamic civilization should not bow down before the world order, they should revive their past in the present and construct a new world order to provide a way out of the present mess and humanity as a whole can work together to see which works best.
I can't predict the future but humanity will destroy itself and its not a matter of "if" but of "when". The present nightmare will seem like a beautiful vision compared to the future. You can't turn a blind eye to deep social-political-spiritual problems, they will multiply, deeply entrench themselves in society and destroy the social fabric eventually
PS : I think both of you have a similar perspective, you can correct me if l am mistaken -
Eskander
25
Then be a shepherd.
I should walk the talk but l won't be surprised to see myself crucified. I am under surveillance already ( confirmed by third parties). I am apparently the radical
F*** those who want to ruin the world and who don't even have the balls to tolerate dissenting opinion. They can go to hell. -
Paine
2.5kIt is difficult, if not impossible, to measure the misery of the present age with that suffered in the past. A fair amount of the testimony suggests that Ecclesiastes was right in saying that it is the Same Day, just different shit.
The present world order is terrible, unjust, and insane but I will take it over the Hundreds of Years of religious wars and the slavery of subsistence living.
Oh wait, we are still doing all of that. But not so much. And not being convinced that there was a Golden Age of simplicity lets me appreciate the benefits and freedom of movement denied to previous generations, at least to the point where I am not burned for being a heretic. The process that made that less likely surely owes a lot to the Enlightenment. It is as if a certain group of people got together and wondered how to constrain the power of these simple people so assured of their own righteousness. -
Hillary
1.9k
This is a western, science-based forum, my friend... Accurate as your panopticon vision is, it will be met with fierce resistance, as the above comments show. Two of the comments pointed to the Eden story. Which in a modern interpretation could be viewed as a paradise that got lost after biting the apple of scientific knowledge. A knowledge compared to which the knowledge of good and bad shrinks into insignificance.
Don't forget: I'm on your side! -
Eskander
25
It is difficult, if not impossible, to measure the misery of the present age with that suffered in the past. A fair amount of the testimony suggests that Ecclesiastes was right in saying that it is the Same Day, just different shit.
The present world order is terrible, unjust, and insane but I will take it over the Hundreds of Years of religious wars and the slavery of subsistence living.
Oh wait, we are still doing all of that. But not so much. And not being convinced that there was a Golden Age of simplicity lets me appreciate the benefits and freedom of movement denied to previous generations, at least to the point where I am not burned for being a heretic. The process that made that less likely surely owes a lot to the Enlightenment. It is as if a certain group of people got together and wondered how to constrain the power of these simple people so assured of their own righteousness.
I think we can agree to the fact that people face the greatest danger (physical and psychological) in a war. World War 1 changed the historical narrative people had of war, it's barbarism destroyed the notion of heroism, honor in war. It was the deadliest war in history until WW2. I think the nukes are the perfect cure and when they will be used, people will wake up and see if the present world order is really safe and conducive to civilization. All we need is a WW3, to wake the world up. The philistines can warn people of the dangers of nukes and try to sign a million nuclear non proliferation treaties to keep the world safe, it will come to pass one day.
As for slavery and poverty, the economic system of western civilization has pushed more people into poverty , to working in sweatshops than slave owners could ever dream of in the past. Modern slavery doesn't require chains, you can trap countries in debt traps and sanction them to death. What a wonderful world, so much better.
What makes you think we don't have heretics these days? The heretics who fight neo-imperialism .Have you forgotten Abu Gharib or the Guantanamo Bay, the US gov so effortlessly runs with impunity. We still have witch hunts with drones and what's even better is you can kill innocent people in collateral damage. Great improvement !!!
I would give everything l have to live in the Abbasid era or in Andalusia during its peak. I guess we have different taste but don't tell me it's better today -
Banno
25kI suspect that the recent and enduring cult of authenticity and hipster artisanal products is another expression of this impulse. — Tom Storm
Well, at least now one can get good coffee.
@Eskander might decide to be a shepherd. In the good old days, he would have had no such choice but to do as his dad did. Rejecting the enlightenment is a foible for the disgruntled comfortable middle class. -
Eskander
25
This is a western, science-based forum, my friend... Accurate as your panopticon vision is, it will be met with fierce resistance, as the above comments show. Two of the comments pointed to the Eden story. Which in a modern interpretation could be viewed as a paradise that got lost after biting the apple of scientific knowledge. A knowledge compared to which the knowledge of good and bad shrinks into insignificance.
Don't forget: I'm on your side!
I hope people never conflate my criticism of modern western civilization with the hatred of westerners. Everyone who shares a similar viewpoint as me, he's my brother, a friend, my own kind in this terrible world. The color of the skin, the language doesn't matter. I haven't lost hope in the goodwill of people living in the west or east.
Btw, science and mathematics (esp) is a shared heritage of mankind. Every civilization has a played a decisive role in its advancement and STEM will take care of itself. I'm more concerned with the ethical- social-political-economic side of the equation. -
Hillary
1.9kThe only way left for me is to reject this civilization in its totality and embrace the life of a shepherd in a countryside, away from all the trouble and in peace with myself. However, many of you don't think this is the way to go, but do you see the light at the end of the tunnel ? — Eskander
I think the light on the end of the tunnel is mostly another train, if the tunnel is a western one.
Living a sober life, without too much attention fo
product and commerce, and not participating in a scheme set up by the possessing class, using scientific knowledge not just for knowledge's sake, but to reform the natural into mathematically predictable schematics, or to rule from the miserable hearts of control, and beat the masses into submission, giving them just enough to eat, TV games to distract, or hope of winning lottery money, while constructions on land, sea, and even space are constantly monitoring the so highly valued material possessions, is a respectable goal! -
Paine
2.5k
I figured that referencing Ecclesiastes would indicate that I was not claiming some fantastic advance for mankind as such.
Technology has made it increasingly easy to kill people but your proposal that 'barbarism' of the sort that does not recognize 'honor', did not occur before WW1 is fantasy. People have been wiping out other people for time out of mind. -
Joshs
5.7k
Btw, science and mathematics (esp) is a shared heritage of mankind. Every civilization has a played a decisive role in its advancement and STEM will take care of itself. I'm more concerned with the ethical- social-political-economic side of the equation. — Eskander
Science and mathematics are not ethically neutral universal achievements. They are utterly inextricable from the social-political-economic history of the West, and as contemporary science and mathematics have been embraced by non-Western countries, those countries have assimilated major elements of Western ethico-political thought into their indigenous culture. -
Joshs
5.7kThe only way left for me is to reject this civilization in its totality and embrace the life of a shepherd in a countryside, away from all the trouble and in peace with myself. — Eskander
Nietzsche said that all philosophy is autobiography. I think that is true of politics and religion as well.
I’m wondering if there is something in your biography that may be making you inclined to project your personal issues onto an abstraction , the so-called ‘global situation’.
What is your relationship with your neighbors in your local community? Do you relate to their outlooks or are you as alienated from them as you are from the modern world as a whole? If you are happily ensconced within your own little corner of the world , why should it matter to your peace of mind what happens in places far from you? And if you are not happy in your own community , do you mean to tell me that you cannot think of anyplace in the entire world where you could find common ground with others on the basis of your religious, political or ethical values?
If you can’t run far enough to escape a world of suffering and pain, perhaps it is becuase you’re trying to run away from yourself. -
T Clark
13.9kThis is a western, science-based forum, my friend... Accurate as your panopticon vision is, it will be met with fierce resistance, as the above comments show. Two of the comments pointed to the Eden story. Which in a modern interpretation could be viewed as a paradise that got lost after biting the apple of scientific knowledge. A knowledge compared to which the knowledge of good and bad shrinks into insignificance. — Hillary
The "above comments" you are referring to are generally respectful and responsive. Reasoned disagreement is not "fierce resistance." You are just reinforcing Eskander's fantasies of martyrdom. Trying to ride on his moral, moralistic coattails. -
Hillary
1.9kThe "above comments" you are referring to are generally respectful and responsive — T Clark
Where do I deny that? They are responsive, as are all comments. They are respectful. And fierce resisting. Which is understandable, as most respondents probably owe the system for their well-being, which isn't everybody's measure of well-being. -
Banno
25kYep.
Then be a shepherd. — Ciceronianus
"He who would follow me, let him forsake his internet connection and his philosophy forum"
-Mathew 16:24
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