Let's go to NATO articles:So the argument that NATO expansion was not provocation because NATO is merely a defensive organisation doesn't hold water does it? — Isaac
Article 10
The Parties may, by unanimous agreement, invite any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area to accede to this Treaty. Any State so invited may become a Party to the Treaty by depositing its instrument of accession with the Government of the United States of America. The Government of the United States of America will inform each of the Parties of the deposit of each such instrument of accession.
Well, hang on a second. Your argument seemed to be that the descendants of the Normans are "still totally in control of the population", and "did the global empire building you refer to".
The Mearsheimer / Kennan narratives just assumes that large countries ought to have "buffer zones" and "spheres of influence" and can do whatever they want with them. If those state opted out of the Soviet Union / Russian Empire, there might be a reason for them to do it, you know.How then do you now support the counter-argument given against the Mearsheimer/Kennan/Burns narrative of a Russia provoked by NATO expansion. — Isaac
it's odd to be so disinterested in the truth. — Olivier5
Former Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said Russia never should have invaded Ukraine, but he believes Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy is as much to blame for the war as Russian leader Vladimir Putin.
Lula said it is irresponsible for Western leaders to celebrate Zelenskiy because they are encouraging war instead of focusing on closed-door negotiations to stop the fighting.
"I see the President of Ukraine, speaking on television, being applauded, getting a standing ovation by all the European parliamentarians," he told Time.
"This guy is as responsible as Putin for the war. Because in the war, there's not just one person guilty," he added.
Lula said Biden and European Union leaders failed to do enough to negotiate with Russia in the run-up to its invasion of Ukraine in February.
"The United States has a lot of political clout. And Biden could have avoided war, not incited it," he said. "Biden could have taken a plane to Moscow to talk to Putin. This is the kind of attitude you expect from a leader."
The United States and European Union could have avoided the invasion by stating that Ukraine would not join NATO, he said.
"Putin shouldn't have invaded Ukraine. But it's not just Putin who is guilty. The U.S. and the EU are also guilty," Lula said. — https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazils-lula-says-zelenskiy-as-responsible-putin-ukraine-war-2022-05-04/
It's not impossible, just not something some of us have any interest in doing. — Isaac
And this is the reason why it's impossible to discuss with people like you since you live by dogma and not reason or rationality. — Christoffer
I've no interest in determining who is 'most' to blame, nor have I any interest in declaring my judgement on that, nor have any interest in whether it is possible to construct narratives supporting or opposing any given policy. I'm interested in exploring the extent to which my country (and it's allies) is to blame, and in whether my preferred narrative remains plausible. — Isaac
Also I will never stop laughing at Christoffer's insistence that everything is 'really nuanced and subtle', which apparently means: NATO and the US are entirely blameless — Streetlight
Lula said Biden and European Union leaders failed to do enough to negotiate with Russia in the run-up to its invasion of Ukraine in February. — https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazils-lula-says-zelenskiy-as-responsible-putin-ukraine-war-2022-05-04/
One ought to give concessions when force is threatened. — Metaphysician Undercover
the Putin trolls — Christoffer
Take a look at our glorious leader, Boris Johnson, the son of immigrants, but schooled at Eton and Oxford. Institutions established by the upper classes for their offspring. He sees himself above the law. — Punshhh
But the torture did not take place only in these prisons. Russian police beat and abused Russian citizens for years, scalding some, raping others with broomsticks. A new word has appeared in Russian: "bottling", which means "raping with a bottle". You can imagine the level of violence in a society where this word appears. — Olivier5
But Isaac is just a confused, truth-abhorring cretin -- he is Gollum, not Sauron. — Olivier5
Boethius is so apologetic that it's a parody, Apollodorus follows Russia's "Sweden and Finland are Nazis" narrative so he's part of that delusion, confusion or agenda as well. — Christoffer
I agree that this shouldn't happen in a civilized society. But the same things, or worse, are happening in NATO countries like Turkey, and in many other places like China, India, Pakistan, etc. — Apollodorus
There are differences between them, though. Boethius is an FSB plant, no doubt in my mind about him, or he would not defend the bombing of civilians like he did. But @Isaac is just a confused, truth-abhorring cretin -- he is Gollum, not Sauron. — Olivier5
Ukraine's fighter pilots are vastly outnumbered by the Russians, and have become legendary - thanks in part to the story of an alleged flying ace called the "Ghost of Kyiv".
This hero is said to have downed as many as 40 enemy planes - an incredible feat in an arena where Russia controls the skies.
But now the Ukraine Air Force Command has warned on Facebook that the "Ghost of Kyiv is a superhero-legend whose character was created by Ukrainians!".
"We ask the Ukrainian community not to neglect the basic rules of information hygiene," the message said, urging people to "check the sources of information, before spreading it".
Earlier reports had named the ace as Major Stepan Tarabalka, 29. The authorities confirmed that he was killed in combat on 13 March and honoured with a Hero of Ukraine medal posthumously.
Now, the air force stresses that "Tarabalka is not 'Ghost of Kiev', and he did not hit 40 planes". — BBC
When it tried to "reinvent" itself. For some time, Russia wasn't a threat and the Cold War era thinking was genuinely thought to be totally obsolete. When Estonia copied the Finnish idea of area defense and reservist army, idea it was basically reprimanded by some in NATO for obsolete thinking. Then for NATO it seemed that it would be without a mission, and there the stupidities started to mount. Russia has by it's actions consistently kicked NATO back to it's original form and finally has gotten the Europeans to rearm and Germany to change course.You say that the articles, as written, are defensive and inclusive - but we've just established that NATO does not always act in accordance with those written articles, so that seems irrelevant. — Isaac
Naturally the US has a lot of influence in NATO, but note the historically peculiar situation where European countries genuinely want to keep the US in Europe. As the old political saying goes, "Keep the Americans in, keep the Russians out and keep the Germans under control."You say that the relationship between NATO and America is sometimes fraught, but the argument is not that NATO fawns over every word America says, merely that America has a lot of influence in NATO, so this seems irrelevant too. — Isaac
That's the problem. It considers something and acts as it retake it's Empire and have a sphere of influence, even if countries aren't willing to go with it. (Authoritarian Belarus didn't have that trouble)That Russia considers itself to have a sphere of influence and will protect it militarily if provoked is all that is necessary to accept that NATO expansion into that sphere acts as provocation. — Isaac
Is it???Whether life in that sphere is better or worse than in America's is, again, completely irrelevant to the argument. — Isaac
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