The trend I mentioned was from the CDC in Atlanta, but it seems to depend on how the stats are reported. The graph I was looking at earlier included chlamydia along with syphilis and gonorrhea. This graph is for syphilis alone, and it presents a different picture than the 3-infection graph. The CDC graph (as opposed to this one) was from 2006 to 2016.

Sex Transm Infect. 2007 Jul; 83(4): 257–266.
doi: 10.1136/sti.2007.026245



Figure 6 Primary and secondary syphilis rates: total and by sex, United States, 1986–2005 and the Health People 2010 target. Note: The Healthy People 2010 target for primary and secondary syphilis is 0.2 case per 100 000 population. Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.1

Issues of escalation aren't really about whether people are inclined towards S&M or not. The trouble with porn, for many who are watching purely for excitement, is it gets boring. — TheWillowOfDarkness

I simply suggested that some people who consume more violent brands of porn or S&M, or bondage porn or what have you may have a taste for such things, rather than such consumption being only the result of porn addiction, as Noble Dust suggested.

I don't think so. Not everyone is watching purely for excitement. Some people would happily watch couples doing missionary every day of their whole lives, much like plenty of people develop a habit of eating the same cereal for breakfast. The why someone is watching or consuming matters.

Then for the people who do become bored, it doesn't necessarily mean they will always find it boring . After some sort of break, it may be they find watching two people just having vanilla sex is interesting (or interesting enough) again.

It's just these don't hold as great promise for ever increasing interest and market.

I don't think so. Not everyone is watching purely for excitement. Some people would happy watch couples doing missionary every day of their whole lives, much like plenty of people develop a habit of eating the same cereal for breakfast. The why someone is watching or consuming matters.

Then for the people who do become bored, it doesn't necessarily mean they will always find it boring . After some sort of break, it may be they find watching two people just having vanilla sex is interesting (or interesting enough) again.

It's just these don't hold as great promise for ever increasing interest and market. — TheWillowOfDarkness

I don't get why you don't think it's an addiction; you're essentially describing addiction, just using slightly tamer language. Have a look at this:

https://yourbrainonporn.com/doing-what-you-evolved-to-do

Why would people be trying to prove that porn is an addiction if there weren't, in fact, thousands of people who feel that it's an addiction for them? There's not some alterier motive here to get porn off the internet; this isn't over-protective Conservative Christian moms making these claims, it's the porn addicts themselves, the majority of which are young males. This community has over 200,000 members:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/

Anon66, I'm all in favor of porn; I have never thought that its use produced negative outcomes.

The only thing I was quibbling with you was that porn resulted in lower STD infection rates. There is no reason to suppose that greater porn use would reduce or increase infection rates. Why? Because the numbers of people who are diagnosed with STDs at any given time is, in most locations, quite small, and one person could be responsible for a number of infections. The incidents of STDs can certainly be decreased, but the methods (outreach, treatment, followup) don't have anything to do with porn. They have to do with the way infectious diseases are managed.

I know. I commented as I did because your analysis is shallow. It's neither interested in describing the phenomena of escalation nor in understanding the presence of violent pornography. All it's interested in doing is scoring a rhetorical point against that escalation exists or there is any sort or problem-- your argument is effectively dismissing there could be any issue by saying: "but it's really just some people are interested in violent pornography."

I know. I commented as I did because your analysis is shallow. — TheWillowOfDarkness

Then I am in good company, apparently.

It's neither interested in describing the phenomena of escalation nor in understanding the presence of violent pornography. All it's interested in doing is scoring a rhetorical point against that escalation exists or there is any sort or problem-- your argument is effectively dismissing there could be any issue by saying: "but it's really just some people are interested in violent pornography."

I neither claimed to have a deep insight into the psyche of those who consume violent porn, nor did I dismiss the possibility of escalation. I took issue with Noble Dust's claim that such porn exists only because of porn addiction, and suggested an alternative route whereby one might seek out such porn due to a taste for more violent fare, rather than needing a more potent "hit" to satisfy their addiction.

What are you talking about? I wasn't saying no-one was addicted.

My point was people get bored of things if they are only consuming them for excitement (whether they are addicted or not), so escalation is driven by an underlying motive to attain ever increasing interest and consumption.

I took issue with Noble Dust's claim that such porn exists only because of porn addiction, and suggested an alternative route whereby one might seek out such porn due to a taste for more violent fare, rather than needing a more potent "hit" to satisfy their addiction. — Arkady

The problem is that this is too theoretical. It's implausible to imagine someone who's never been exposed to porn seeing it for the first time and going "yeah, but where's the violent stuff?". It's theoretically possible that violent or more unusual forms of porn could exist without addicts who need more novelty (tolerance), sure. It's just not plausible. I'm not a psychologist, but I would imagine studying addiction is better done by analysis and observation of addicts, not posing theoretical scenarios. The problem is there isn't alot of studies like that being done yet.

What are you talking about? I wasn't saying no-one was addicted. — TheWillowOfDarkness

You said:

Noble Dust is mistaken to say it's a question of addition. — TheWillowOfDarkness

And then proceeded to describe "issues of escalation" outside of the context of addiction, so I assumed you meant that porn isn't an addiction. Apologies for the assumption, but I'm still unsure what exactly you're arguing here. I guess it's this:

My point was people get bored of things if they are only consuming them for excitement (whether they are addicted or not), so escalation is driven by an underlying motive to attain ever increasing interest and consumption. — TheWillowOfDarkness

And I'm just not even sure why this matters. Sure, there's other instances of escalation; hotter and hotter spicy food. But to me, bringing that up in this context only obscures the issue of porn being an addiction. And it's still unclear why you think I'm mistaken to say it's a question of addiction, within the argument you then are proceeding to make.

The problem is that this is too theoretical. — Noble Dust

We know that some people are into bondage, S&M, etc in their personal life, and we know that some people have a taste for violent porn. I think we both accept these statements. The possibility I suggested is that some people seek out or preferentially enjoy more violent sorts of porn, not out of an escalating addiction, but just due to their tastes.

It's implausible to imagine someone who's never been exposed to porn seeing it for the first time and going "yeah, but where's the violent stuff?".

Perhaps not, but what hinges on this?

It's theoretically possible that violent or more unusual forms of porn could exist without addicts who need more novelty (tolerance), sure. It's just not plausible. I'm not a psychologist, but I would imagine studying addiction is better done by analysis and observation of addicts, not posing theoretical scenarios. The problem is there isn't alot of studies like that being done yet.

Then we disagree about its plausibility. Recall your comment that such porn exists only due to porn addiction; that is, there is not one single person who watches violent porn who is not also a porn addict. That is what I find implausible. Very few things exist solely because of one (and only one) other thing, it seems to me.

The possibility I suggested is that some people seek out or preferentially enjoy more violent sorts of porn, not out of an escalating addiction, but just due to their tastes. — Arkady

Fine, I can entertain the possibility, I just don't think it's important or relevant to the issue of addiction. It doesn't affect the problem of addiction in any way. I'm primarily concerned with the issue of porn addiction, and it seems like all that you and other folks here have to say about that is "sure, addiction is possible". These arguments that fixate on the minutae are distracting from the bigger issue.

What do you think about the possibility of porn addiction?

Good to know I'm too implausible to exist!

I was imaging bondage scenes long before I watched any porn (before I had "the talk" actually).


Your approach here bothers me. Why is the question of whether people might like violent pornography an issue?

Addiction isn't one's sexual interests or fetish. It's a maladaptive obsession with partaking in a particular action which causes you harm. You seem desperate to equate interest in bondage or BDSM with porn addiction, as if such desires or interests were nothing more than a horror generated out of porn addiction.

Good to know I'm too implausible to exist! — TheWillowOfDarkness

Lol what?

Your approach here bothers me. Why is the question of whether people might like violent pornography an issue? — TheWillowOfDarkness

I guess because it's violent?

You seem desperate to equate interest in bondage or BDSM with addiction, as if such desires or interests were nothing more than a horror generated out of porn addiction. — TheWillowOfDarkness

I don't understand how you're coming to this conclusion. Your responses don't deal with what I mentioned about what you said about escalation.

I'll pose the same question to you as to Arkady: What do you think about the possibility of porn addiction?

I can see the "married porn" videos now. Lawfully married husbands and wives arrive home after collecting one child from pre-school, taking another to dance class, a third to hockey practice, a fourth to soccer; a trip to the store. By 7:00 everyone is irritable from hunger and even microwaved food takes some time. Then there are dishes, cleaning, homework, laundry, calls from the office, a couple of tantrums (dramatized by the youngest kid) and around 11:00 (on a good night) the parents go to bed. Great sex now? Are you out of your fucking mind? They lurch into sleep, (if they can) and the alarm goes off at 6:00 at the latest. Another day.

Fine, I can entertain the possibility, I just don't think it's important or relevant to the issue of addiction. It doesn't affect the problem of addiction in any way. I'm primarily concerned with the issue of porn addiction, and it seems like all that you and other folks here have to say about that is "sure, addiction is possible". These arguments that fixate on the minutae are distracting from the bigger issue. — Noble Dust

You seem fixated on the issue of porn addiction, to the exclusion of virtually every other consideration. There are other aspects of the topic, and I don't think they should be tossed off as "minutiae."

What do you think about the possibility of porn addiction?

This:

Yes, porn can be harmful and addictive. — Arkady

You seem fixated on the issue of porn addiction, to the exclusion of virtually every other consideration. There are other aspects of the topic, and I don't think they should be tossed off as "minutiae." — Arkady

But the most pressing aspect of the topic is addiction because of it's prevalence and the way it affects peoples lives. What's worse right now is there isn't much data or studies to support the obvious problem that porn addiction presents. All we have are a few studies, and anecdotal evidence from hundreds of thousands of addicts, not to mention those who haven't shared their evidence yet, or those who haven't yet acknowledged that they have a problem. This is why I'm focusing on the problem of addiction. I feel like a broken record at this point.

In terms of addiction, surely it's comparable to gambling. Again, gambling can be reasonably harmless - the odd flutter at the horses, a casual evening bet on the pokies. But when the 'gambling bug' bites it's a very different matter - it frequently leads to criminality, fraud, loss of property or career. It fixates people, it becomes central to their existence, and that's what makes it an addiction. Porn is easily like that, but the costs are often the loss of the ability for simple intimacy, and the subsequent erosion of relationships.

But the most pressing aspect of the topic is addiction because of it's prevalence and the way it affects peoples lives. What's worse right now is there isn't much data or studies to support the obvious problem that porn addiction presents. All we have are a few studies, and anecdotal evidence from hundreds of thousands of people. This is why I'm focusing on the problem of addiction. I feel like a broken record at this point. — Noble Dust

Ok, ND, just take a deep breath and calm down. The world will soldier on and survive the scourge of porn addiction, I promise you.

Perhaps porn addiction is the "most pressing aspect" of porn from a public health standpoint, but this isn't a public health forum: it's a philosophy forum, and there are other aspects of the topic which are salient and (IMO) interesting in their own right, apart from the issue of addiction.

Some other kinds of 'porn' on the internet:

dog porn
cat porn
car porn
house porn
architecture porn
art porn
right wing porn
(no such thing as left wing porn, of course; there it's all factual, historical, and high value)

Honestly, this stuff functions the same way. It's quite engaging, it's escapist, there are many different settings and activities so the golden retriever puppies don't all look alike; it goes on as long as you can stand it; cats, dogs... whatever turns you on.

Some people spend hours looking at mid-century modern architecture and furniture. I like to look at brutalist architecture (featuring raw concrete), and 20th century art. So, quite a bit of time can be flushed down the drain looking at dogs, cats, house decor, architecture, and art. Granted, Kandinsky paintings don't give me so much of an erection.

Consider for instance, that in 2005 (couldn't find something more recent on a super quick search), 2.5 million people in the US were treated for alcohol addiction, surely one of the oldest addictions in the world. Porn addiction is in it's infancy in terms of our recognition of it, study of it, and recommendations of treatment. So out of 200,000 plus addicts who acknowledge their problem enough to join an online community about it, combined with those who are struggling too much with the addiction to even take the step of joining a community, and those who are addicted but don't believe themselves to be...it doesn't look like that much smaller of an addiction than something like alcoholism. Sure, maybe it's not as widespread, I'm just trying to pull together some (almost non-existent) numbers here.

The point was I'm a literal refutation of your assertion no-one would have an interest in BDSM without having seen porn: I was having BDSM fantasies before watching porn or even knowing all the details of sex.

My conclusion is based on how you are making an interest in violent pornography dependent on addiction. You didn't pull Arkady up for dismissing escalation and talking about something (that some people are interested in violent pornography, irrespective of how addicted to porn they are) that is more or less irrelevant to addiction and escalation.

Instead, you speak like Arkady was suggesting an implausibility, as it the presence of violent pornography was only plausibly a matter of BDSM interest generated by porn addiction. Seems to me your point of concern isn't just porn addiction, but also the mere presence of violent pornography itself and anyone has an interest in it (or the sort of sex it depicts).

Perhaps porn addiction is the "most pressing aspect" of porn from a public health standpoint, but this isn't a public health forum: it's a philosophy forum, and there are other aspects of the topic which are salient and (IMO) interesting in their own right, apart from the issue of addiction. — Arkady

Addiction has always been relevant to the OP; he stated that there's evidence that porn is not harmful. I never directly addressed the OP, but bringing up addiction is relevant to the topic; it was a response to that part of the OP. Perhaps not the most directly philosophical aspect, no.

Fine, no problem. The issue of violent porn or BDSM was tangential to the main point I've been trying to address, which is addiction. I can entertain the possibility of having an interest in those forms of porn before seeing porn. Fine, I'm just trying to underline the issue of addiction. I think I've probably worn out my welcome in this thread.

Addiction has always been relevant to the OP; he stated that there's evidence that porn is not harmful. I never directly addressed the OP, but bringing up addiction is relevant to the topic; it was a response to that part of the OP. Perhaps not the most directly philosophical aspect, no. — Noble Dust

Relevant, sure, but not the only thing to talk about. The OP raised a number of other issues, including whether porn uses people merely as means rather than ends unto themselves, whether sex is or ought to be solely a private act and not for public consumption, etc.

But the most pressing aspect of the topic is addiction because of it's prevalence and the way it affects peoples lives. What's worse right now is there isn't much data or studies to support the obvious problem that porn addiction presents. All we have are a few studies, and anecdotal evidence from hundreds of thousands of people. This is why I'm focusing on the problem of addiction. I feel like a broken record at this point. — Noble Dust

Odd how "broken record" still works as a metaphor when defective records haven't been repeating themselves for so many years.

So, addiction is a very pressing topic but what's worse is that there isn't much data or studies to support the obvious problem that porn addiction presents. All we have is a few studies...

Maybe there isn't much data or studies because it actually isn't that big a problem?

My guess is that people play video games for an extraordinary amount of time for the same reason they look at porn a lot: Their lives are otherwise empty, lacking in normal rewards, or are very unpleasant and they escape through a video screen.

I agree that people who spend too many hours a day looking at porn might have a problem, but addiction may not be its name. I think there are a ton of dysfunctional people out there, living in social milieus that are dysfunctional. Long hours at tedious work and long commutes can leave one little time and energy for renewal or even relationships. Television and the internet both provide low-demand programming that is just interesting enough to fill the emptiness.

People have been using television for a long time, the same way they use internet porn: they turn it on, sit down, and watch it for hours on end -- and people have been watching TV like that since the late 1950s. Internet porn has fewer commercials.

I'm "addicted" to the internet in general. Sometimes when I go to turn off the computer at night, I have to check email one more time, see if there is a fresh post on The Philosophy Forum, check the Guardian to see if there is a breaking news story in Britain, and so on. When I'm not feeding my internet addiction I'm feeding other addictions -- reading, especially. I spend hours a day reading books. Doctor, help me, I'm a very sick man.

I was having BDSM fantasies before watching porn or even knowing all the details of sex. — TheWillowOfDarkness

Which is very interesting. Young people seem to develop various 'paraphilias' like BDSM so early on. It's remarkable. One would think BDSM, or the foot fetish, or whatever wouldn't happen until adulthood, and greater experience. But no, it seems to happen quite early - and remains throughout life.

I think I've probably worn out my welcome in this thread. — Noble Dust

No, no -- don't go away. We could strip you, tie you up, and subject you to various S&M procedures which you might find quite interesting.

My guess is that people play video games for an extraordinary amount of time for the same reason they look at porn a lot: Their lives are otherwise empty, lacking in normal rewards, or are very unpleasant and they escape through a video screen. — Bitter Crank

But there's a cardinal difference between playing video games and porn in terms of the outcome (although if you don't know what it is, I'd be embarrased to have to explain it. :-} )

I can see the "married porn" videos now. Lawfully married husbands and wives arrive home after collecting one child from pre-school, taking another to dance class, a third to hockey practice, a fourth to soccer; a trip to the store. By 7:00 everyone is irritable from hunger and even microwaved food takes some time. Then there are dishes, cleaning, homework, laundry, calls from the office, a couple of tantrums (dramatized by the youngest kid) and around 11:00 (on a good night) the parents go to bed. Great sex now? Are you out of your fucking mind? They lurch into sleep, (if they can) and the alarm goes off at 6:00 at the latest. Another day. — Bitter Crank

LOL. You've missed the point. The point would be to create a fantasy. The fantasy being that being married is cool and married sex is fantastic. So, why would anyone want anything other than married sex?