• Hillary
    1.9k
    Let me offer my two shekels in the gods debate. Consider the following argument.

    -The universe is made from non-intelligent dead basic material
    -Dead, non-intelligent basic material can't bring itself into existence. It's simply not smart enough.
    -Conclusion: intelligent gods have brought the basic material into existence. They are the reason of existence, whatever that reason might have been.

    The why question doesn't apply to the existence of gods, as eternal intelligences don't require another reason. How can dead stuff, out of which life evolved, just exist, even eternally, without a cause, or better, a reason for its existence? Letting it pop into existence by some "mindless spark", like brother @universeness suggested, seems almost the same as suggesting gods are the reason. Almost, as a mindless spark is the irrational alternative of gods with a reason.

    Is my argument sound? Can we say it's a proof even?
  • Angelo Cannata
    354
    So, God should exist to satisfy your cause-effect mental scheme, the same way God should not exist to avoid conflicts with the mental schemes of atheists.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    So, God should exist to satisfy your cause-effect mental scheme,Angelo Cannata

    It's the opposite. The universe satisfies my cause-effect scheme, and because the cause-effect scheme can't explain it's own existence, there has to be a non-causal reason for it's existence, i.e. ,gods
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    The universe is made from non-intelligent dead basic materialHillary

    Not true.
  • Hillary
    1.9k


    But how did it create itself? What intelligence matter particles have to create themselves?
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    But how did it create itself?Hillary

    There was no creation.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    There was no creation.Jackson

    How do you know?
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    How do you know?Hillary

    How do you know there was? Just a Christian dogma.
  • Hillary
    1.9k



    So the universe exists without a reason? All life exists without a reason?
  • Hillary
    1.9k


    Im no Christian. I dont believe in God.
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    Im no Christian. I dont believe in God.Hillary

    That's nice.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    How do you know there was?Jackson

    How you know there wasn't? Scientific dogma tells you that.
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    How you know there wasn't? Scientific dogma tells you that.Hillary

    What science says the world always existed?
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    That's nice.Jackson

    Why did you assume Im a Christian?

    What science says the world always existed?Jackson

    Then it still needs a reason it exists.
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    Then it still needs a reason it exists.Hillary

    If the universe always existed then why does it need a reason?
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    If the universe always existed then why does it need a reason?Jackson

    There might not be a first cause, but there just has to be a reason for life. To think not is irrational.
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    There might not be a first cause, but there just has to be a reason for life.Hillary

    Why does there have to be a reason?
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Why does there have to be a reason?Jackson

    Because I believe in rationallity, the ratio. And non-intelligent particles in a quantum vacuum are too stupid to have come into existence by themselves.
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    And non-intelligent particlesHillary

    Yes, and this I contest.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Yes, and this I contest.Jackson

    What intelligence has a particle? How it creates itself out of the blue, even if eternal?
  • Angelo Cannata
    354

    The fact that the universe seems to your mind to satisfy your cause-effect scheme does not mean that your mental scheme expresses entirely how everything works. This is the mistake made by Russell's inductivist turkey.
  • Jackson
    1.8k
    What intelligence has a particle? How it creates itself out of the blue, even if eternal?Hillary

    I reject the logic of creation.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    The why question doesn't apply to the existence of gods, as eternal intelligences don't require another reason.Hillary
    Why not?

    Is my argument sound? Can we say it's a proof even?
    No. No.

    So the universe exists without a reason? All life exists without a reason?Hillary
    Yes. Yes.

    NB: The only "reason for existence" that does not beg the question (i.e. an infinite regress) – that is rational – is that there is no reason for existence.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    3 Revolutions!

    1. Creatio ex nihilo (Deus/Fluke): Nothing Something

    2. Biological: Inanimate Animate

    3. Psychological: Animate Consciousness

    ---
    Posited 4th Revolution

    4. Transcendence (Nirvana/Deus/etc.): Consciousness ? Sabrá Mandrake!
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    NB: The only "reason for existence" that does not beg the question (i.e. an infinite regress) – that is rational – is that there is no reason for existence.180 Proof

    No reason begs the question just as well. Why is there no reason? Why exist the universe and life in it without reason? Why is the universe irrational? Because its irrational? Even more irrational. The only rational explanation is gods, who don't need further reason to exist.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Why is there no reason?Hillary
    Performative contradiction.
  • Hillary
    1.9k
    Performative contradiction.180 Proof

    A reason a performative contradiction? I would say the lack of reason is an explosive irrationality. The gods could just gather globally and collectively speak the word. The logos was created.
  • Relativist
    2.6k
    How can dead stuff, out of which life evolved, just exist, even eternally, without a cause, or better, a reason for its existence? Letting it pop into existence by some "mindless spark", like brotherHillary
    Why can't the material world exist eternally (ie at all times, even if the past is finite)? This doesn't entail "popping into existence", it means never NOT existing.
  • Hillary
    1.9k


    You could push away the popping into existence to an infinite past, but that doesn't mean the universe wasn't created. The 4d structure on which two 3d universes inflate (emerge) periodically, is itself no subjected to thermodynamic time. The structure fluctuates in time and is too dumb to create it's own existence. To say its an eternal structure makes sense only from the emergent thermodynamic, unidirectional time perspective, as experiences in the two universes emerging on it periodically (each new pair with a new beginning in time). The question is: who the fuck made that 4d structure? Answer: gods created it to run a material version of the eternal etherical heaven on. In one big bang after another. Maybe there just was a first big bang, maybe we live in the zillionth...
  • universeness
    6.3k

    So, I haven't received any of these burning physics questions you claim you have that physicists have so far refused to answer. I don't understand your delay, since your claim suggests these questions were created a long time ago so it's not like you would need time to form one of them.
    Your credibility has diminished further imo.
    I withdraw my offer to pose one of your 'burning' questions to the physicists who have answered my questions previously on Quora.
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