desire — T Clark

I had a close look and was still having trouble getting it so I turned to a secondary source. Interested in your take on this:


"Taoism, like Buddhism, distinguishes between desires, deciding to split the one force into two (outer, or material, desires and inner, or immaterial, desires). Outer desires are equivalent to craving in Buddhism; a force for evil to be vanquished through religious methods. Inner desires, however, are our desires to better ourselves and bring ourselves closer to Tao. These desires are necessary, as without them, we would either be craving-driven gluttons or inactive nobodies. With them, we refine ourselves to be better and closer to the state of total immersion and unity which can either be identified with nirvana or Tao. Thus, as we fulfill our inner desires, we get closer to that indescribable completion and farther from our animalistic impulses. As we get closer, our desires lessen, and the balance within us shifts toward fulfillment and away from longing. Only after some time of this shifting can we make a meaningful attempt to let go completely and unite ourselves with our own innermost natures. According to the Tao Te Ching, “he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.” "

https://jwbarlament.medium.com/a-universal-truth-desire-in-buddhism-taoism-and-stoicism-cd28a34526f5

The distinction between craving and aspiration seems solid to me. Not sure how this is reflected in the Tao Te Ching, but maybe you can point me in the right direction.

desire — T Clark

The focus on contentment, understood as the opposite of desire, also rings true to me.

https://www.meaning.ca/article/contentment-as-the-way-of-nature-insights-from-taoism/

So if we take contentment to be the opposite of desire we may be able to substitute the word "discontent" where we find the word "desire."

That's making some sense to me, but, again, not sure if that's an accurate reading of the Tao Te Ching.

"Taoism, like Buddhism, distinguishes between desires, deciding to split the one force into two (outer, or material, desires and inner, or immaterial, desires). Outer desires are equivalent to craving in Buddhism; a force for evil to be vanquished through religious methods. Inner desires, however, are our desires to better ourselves and bring ourselves closer to Tao. These desires are necessary, as without them, we would either be craving-driven gluttons or inactive nobodies. With them, we refine ourselves to be better and closer to the state of total immersion and unity which can either be identified with nirvana or Tao. Thus, as we fulfill our inner desires, we get closer to that indescribable completion and farther from our animalistic impulses. As we get closer, our desires lessen, and the balance within us shifts toward fulfillment and away from longing. Only after some time of this shifting can we make a meaningful attempt to let go completely and unite ourselves with our own innermost natures. According to the Tao Te Ching, “he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.” " — ZzzoneiroCosm

I'll say it again - you need to find your own understanding of the Tao Te Ching and not depend on what I say. Speaking of which:

Boy. I really hate this. It's about as far from my understanding of what Lao Tzu was describing as you can get. This guy is trying to turn a profound vision of the deepest human experience into a comfortable new age self-help book. Hate, hate, hate. Sorry.

Yes, I know, this is a very unTaoist response.

The distinction between craving and aspiration seems solid to me. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I used this quote from Stephen Mitchell's translation of Verse 13 a couple of pages back:

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

For me, "aspiration" is the same as "hope."

The focus on contentment, understood as the opposite of desire, also rings true to me. — ZzzoneiroCosm

So if we take contentment to be the opposite of desire we may be able to substitute the word "discontentment" where we find the word "desire." — ZzzoneiroCosm

Some excerpts from the Tao Te Ching translated by Ellen Marie Chen:

Verse 33

One who knows contentment is rich;

Verse 35

Hold aloft the Great Image,
The whole world will go to it.
Going to it, they will meet with no harm,
Only safety, peace, and contentment.

Verse 44

Your name and your body, which is dearer?
Your body and material goods, which is more abundant?
Gain and loss, which is illness?
Therefore in excessive love one necessarily goes to great expenses,
In hoarding much one necessarily loses heavily.
Knowing contentment one does not suffer disgrace,
Knowing when to stop one does not become exhausted.
This way one may last long.

Verse 46

Among offenses, none is greater than having what is desirable.
Among calamities, none is greater than not knowing contentment.
Among blames, none is greater than the desire for gain.
Therefore the contentment that comes from knowing contentment
Is a long lasting contentment.

I'm getting really uncomfortable with this. I feel like I'm imposing my understanding on yours by force.

I'm getting really uncomfortable with this. I feel like I'm imposing my understanding on yours by force. — T Clark

I don't get that sense at all, no sense of imposition. I take your view to be just one of many possibilities.

Though I do appreciate your concern.

I'll say it again - you need to find your own understanding of the Tao Te Ching and not depend on what I say. — T Clark

Just speak your mind. I've been thinking for myself for a loooooooooong time.

I went ahead and made the substitution ("discontent" for "desire") and now the thing makes a lot more sense to me. Take a look. :smile:

Alternate Verse 1

Non-being, to name the origin of heaven and earth;
Being, to name the mother of ten thousand things.
Therefore, always without discontent,
In order to observe the hidden mystery;
Always with discontent,
In order to observe the manifestations.



Verse 19

Eliminate sagacity, discard knowledge,
People will be profited a hundredfold.
Eliminate humanity, discard righteousness,
People will again practice filial piety and parental love.
Abolish artistry, discard profit-seeking,
Robbers and thieves shall disappear.
These three pairs adorn what is deficient.
Therefore, let there be the advice:
Look to the undyed silk, hold on to the uncarved wood,
Reduce your sense of self and lessen your discontent.

Verse 29

One who in discontent desires to take the world and act upon it,
I see that it cannot be done.
The world is a spirit vessel,
Which cannot be acted upon.
One who acts on it fails,
One who holds on to it loses.
Therefore things either move forward or follow behind;
They blow hot or blow cold;
They are strong or weak;
They get on or they get off.
Therefore the sage gets rid of over-doing,
Gets rid of extravagances,
Gets rid of excesses.

Verse 34

The great Tao floods over,
To the left, to the right.
Ten thousand beings live by it,
And it does not reject them.
Work is accomplished, yet it has no name.
It clothes and nourishes ten thousand beings,
But does not lord over them.
Always without discontent
It may be named the small;
Ten thousand beings return to it,
Yet it does not lord over them,
It may be named the great.
Because it never considers itself great,
Therefore it can accomplish its greatness.

Verse 37

Tao everlasting does not act,
And yet nothing is not done.
If kings and barons can abide by it,
The ten thousand things will transform by themselves.
If in transforming discontent is aroused,
I shall suppress it by the nameless uncarved wood.
With the nameless uncarved wood,
There shall be no discontent
Without discontent there is thus quietude.
The world shall be self-ordered.

I went ahead and made the substitution ("discontent" for "desire"), and now the thing makes a lot more sense to me. Take a look. — ZzzoneiroCosm

What's missing for me with "discontent" is the sense of striving, grasping that I feel with "desire." Discontent is the result of desire.

What's missing for me with "discontent" is the sense of striving, grasping that I feel with "desire." Discontent is the result of desire. — T Clark

I really like the substitution. It adds clarity and therefore beauty. To my mind, it retains "the sense of striving and grasping"...

Maybe "desirous discontent" could satisfy both of us?...

Maybe "desirous discontent" could satisfy both of us?... — ZzzoneiroCosm

Let’s just let this be a point of disagreement for us. There’s no reason we have to agree on what Lau Tzu is trying to say.

:cool:

One last thought on desire before we move on. I'm excited to get to the rest of the book.


I take desire, whether conscious or unconscious, to be a kind of primal or underlying motivation for all human activity. If we eat, in some sense we have desired to eat. So when Lao Tzu writes "desire" it must not be a reference to all kinds of desire but must be a reference to a certain kind of desire. It's a question of interpretation what sort of desire he refers to. Possibly he deliberately leaves that up to us.


That's all I've got. I'm ready to move forward.

Again, I appreciate your insight and your company here, and I get that we won't always agree. I don't expect us to. With any luck, the fact that we disagree about desire has made you feel less impositioning.

:cool:

I take desire, whether conscious or unconscious, to be a kind of primal or underlying motivation for all human activity. If we eat, in some sense we have desired to eat. So when Lao Tzu writes "desire" it must not be a reference to all kinds of desire but must be a reference to a certain kind of desire. It's a question of interpretation what sort of desire he refers to. Possibly he deliberately leaves that up to us. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I've been thinking about desire too. Some thoughts:

• I can quibble about desire vs. discontent, but it's exactly that, a quibble. It's the underlying experience that matters. For me, that's true for everything in the Tao Te Ching. The exact words we use don't matter.
• I think part of my resistance comes from the fact that I've used "desire" for a long time and it has taken on a specific connation in relation to the TTC, a mood, a shade, that has become important to me.
• I have an image that comes to mind when I think on the subject of why we do the things we do. I see a spring bubbling up from underground, a place that we can't know directly. When we act in accordance with what is bubbling up from inside us, it's called "wu wei," acting without acting, without desire, without intention, without expectation, spontaneous, from our hearts. I don't call that desire, I usually just call it motivation.
• My dislike for the long passage you quoted comes from the fact I resist explaining away the ambiguity and contradiction in the TTC. Not being exactly sure what is going on is an important part of the experience. I think living with the contradiction of naming what can't be named, desiring not to desire, acting without acting - surrendering to our lack of understanding - is the whole point.

The trans-polytheism inherent to buddhism seems in coherent congruence with samsaran notion. The notion of the physical bootsrap conjecture, devoid of matter, while emphasizing the universal interconnectednes, universal interaction and it's transitional character, and the notion of the ephemeral, is a welcome aid in the shake-down of desire, motives, reason, and cause. Freed from these one floats through life like the dandelion fluff, without longing or caring, the only desire being to let the winds continue and the Sun to shine. Without internal substance, lost in the eternal ocean of infinity.

Not being exactly sure what is going on is an important part of the experience. — T Clark

I agree the obscurantism of the book is a good part of the point. It forces us to learn the Tao on our own; we have to fill in the blanks. It's not obvious to me that the many blanks need to remain blanks to be true to the text. I see ultimate value and perhaps Lao Tzu's intended outcome in my very personal filling-in of the blanks.

Put differently: While I agree Lao Tzu wrote deliberately obscurantically, I do think he wanted his book to be understood. He was after an odd sort of understanding: he wants, not himself, but the reader, to be the teacher.

The atmosphere of paradox is part of the brilliance of this conception, as it allows the reader to approach the koanic epoche and dwell therein - in a kind of meditative suspension of judgment; even ataraxia - and thereafter to sort out the paradox with his own interpretive analysis.


And, of course the koanic epoche remains accessible even after the analysis, reanalysis, rereanalysis...


Truly brilliant.

in coherent congruence with samsaran notion — Hillary

the notion of the ephemeral, is a welcome aid in the shake-down of desire, motives, reason, and cause. — Hillary

I appreciate this serious attempt to address what's at stake in these fascinating worldviews.

Samsara, or the ephemeral - this first-blush existential emptiness can at first cause the mind to despair: The stars race blindly on. But acceptance of the samsaric can indeed open vistas to a profound peacefulness - as described here:

Freed from these one floats through life like the dandelion fluff, without longing [ ] ...the only desire being to let the winds continue and the Sun to shine. Without internal substance, lost in the eternal ocean of infinity. — Hillary

Without internal substance — Hillary

The notion of no-self is, to my view, deeply interlinked with the flow of cause and effect - in a word, with samsara.

Thanks for reading my words. Really appreciate. I was expecting scepticism or cynism, or dunno what.

:smile:

It's truly how I like to go through life. The conscious striving for it seems, at least for me, a hindrance. I've experienced such "dandelion fluff" feeling a few times in my life. But they came at unexpected moments and psychologists label it "the manic state of the bipolar". Dear mother of god... The first time I experienced it was during a psychosis. Which was rightly labeled as such, as I saw in hindsight! My level of consciousness was not too high then. Now I am conscious about such states, even when a psychotic part is involved (which makes it the question if it's truly a psychosis). During those dandelion episodes, it feels as if no efforts are made, as if the playing is what you are, as if borders have evaporated. Which is quite annoying for other people sometimes, though no evil is meant. It seems though that these episodes don't arrive anymore. But who knows. And maybe I'm dandelion right now... :smile:

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

But they came at unexpected moments and psychologists label it "the manic state of the bipolar". — Hillary

There is a close link between mania and Maslow's "peak experience." The first is typically centered in delusion. The second, in spiritual growth and healthy inspiration.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience

Thanks for reading my words. Really appreciate. I was expecting scepticism or cynism, or dunno what. — Hillary

No problem. It was clear that this particular post was a serious attempt to contribute. It's fun to play the clown on sites like this too. :joke:

Hi there. When you post for a particular forum member, you can use the @ button to get their attention. Like this:

@ArielAssante


You'll find the @ button at the top of the text-entry box, close to the bold and italics options. Welcome to the forum!

Which is quite annoying for other people sometimes, though no evil is meant. — Hillary

To unhappy people, there's nothing more annoying than happiness.

To unhappy people, there's nothing more annoying than happiness. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Couldn't agree more! ZzzoneiroCosm, that's quite a name!

Ah! So near oh cosmos!

ZzzoneiroCosm, that's quite a name! — Hillary

:fire: :yawn: :fire:

one floats through life like the dandelion fluff, without longing or caring, — Hillary

There is a caricature of eastern philosophies that says they promote a fuzzy; unfocussed; don't worry, be happy attitude. I have no problem with what you've written as long as we recognize that wu wei, action without action, takes place with deep attention and awareness.

Are you saying that Taoism is not based in any APs?

If you are, please elaborate on Taoism’ lack of APs. — ArielAssante

I see the Taoist world view as a metaphysical understanding. As such, it has it's own absolute presuppositions. As I see it, one of the absolute presuppositions of a scientific viewpoint is that there exists an objective reality that continues whether or not we, humans, are involved as observers. In Taoism, that presupposition is replaced by the Tao, which is a featureless unity. It is the act of naming that divides that unity and brings our everyday observable world into existence by creating the multiplicity of our world, the so-called 10,000 things.

Worries and happiness have no place in the dandelion fluff float. One just floats through life, not being busy, not acting while acting. Life floats by while my flow floats by life. There is no cause no effect, no good no bad, no intention, no impact, no force, no pressure. Just the beating of the heart, the voices and colors of the mind, in full understanding of the colors and voices of the world in which they flow. The busy man is changed in the unbussines of natural transformation, denying itself while being.

And then one realizes someone pisses in your milk and tries to steal your honey. And that someone could be me...