I have an image that comes to mind when I think on the subject of why we do the things we do. I see a spring bubbling up from underground, a place that we can't know directly. When we act in accordance with what is bubbling up from inside us, it's called "wu wei," acting without acting, without desire, without intention, without expectation, spontaneous, from our hearts. I don't call that desire, I usually just call it motivation. — T Clark

I appreciate your confessing to a quibble.

The above we kind of agreed has some connection to flow states.

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The fact that this struggle itself is a barrier is not lost on me. — ArielAssante

Lao Tzu recognized and acknowledged the struggle you are dealing with. It's one of the fundamental insights of the Tao Te Ching.

A cute translation of chapter 20:

Don’t spend too much time thinking about stupid shit.
Why should you care if people agree or disagree with you?
Why should you care if others find you attractive or not?
Why should you care about the things that worry others?
Call bullshit on all that.

Let other people get worked up
as they try to enjoy themselves.
I’m not going to give myself away.
A baby doesn’t know how to smile, but it’s still happy.

Let other people get excited about stuff.
I’m not going to hang on to anything.
I’m not going to fill my mind with ideas.
I’m not going to get stuck in a rut,
tied down to any one place.

Other people are clever;
I guess I must be stupid.
Other people have goals;
I guess I must be aimless.
Like the wind. Or the waves.

I’m not like other people.
I’m getting right with Tao."
- Translated by Ron Hogan, 1995, Chapter 20






https://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclz20.htm

What a wealth of translations:

Abolish study and you will be free from care.
"What the distinction is between 'yea' and 'aye'", "what the difference is between 'good' and 'evil'";
that "one should stand in awe of what others stand in awe of"; - how vast (is the study of these things)!
There is no end to it!
But when all men are joyous as if celebrating the Great Sacrifice or climbing the heights in spring, then I alone,
so passive, - giving no sign, like an infant that has not yet smiles; - so forlorn,
like one who has nowhere to turn! When all men have plenty, I alone am like one who is left out.
I have indeed the heart of a fool, - so obtuse!
Let ordinary men be bright and intelligent, I alone am stupid and confused.
Let ordinary men be astute and far-sighted, I alone am dull and mope-eyed.
Wan like the waning moon; adrift like one who has nowhere to rest!
Let all men have a purpose, I alone am ignorant like a boor.
I alone am different from others because I prize feeding on "the Mother". "
- Translated by Jan J. L. Duyvendak, 1954, Chapter 20





Cease learning many things, we shall have peace;

Between the flattering "yea" and honest "yes,"

The difference is small, but the effect

World-wide, when good or evil we reject;

The evil that men fear not, no one fears,

And wastefulness without restraint appears.

The multitude of men look satisfied,

They feed at feasts, they mount on towers of pride,

And I alone seem timorous and still,

No signs of promise act upon my will,

A babe not yet matured, sad and forlorn,

Without a home, to desolation born.

The multitude of men have goods to spare,

Tis only I who wander everywhere

Bereft of all, with dull and stupid gaze,

Myself a chaos and my mind a maze.

The multitude of common men are bright,

And critical and keen, and full of light,

While I alone confused appear to be,

Drifting about on some dark, lonely sea;

The multitude on doing things are bent,

While I alone appear incompetent,

A rustic rude, I differ from all others,

But oh! the food I prize and seek is Our Eternal Mother's."
- Translated by Isaac Winter Heysinger, 1903, Chapter 20


What is actually the difference between "yes" and "no"?
What is actually the difference between good and bad?
Must we fear what others fear?
The complexity is limitless!
In general, the people are happy, as if they were enjoying a royal feast,
Or as if they had climbed to the top of the tower on a spring day.
I alone am indifferent and quiet, I show no signs,
Like a baby who cannot smile yet,
Depressed as if I do not have a home to go back to.
All the others have more than enough,
And I alone, it seems, have a need to make up for what is missing.
Perhaps my thoughts are the thoughts of a fool,
Ignorant of knowledge, despised by everyone!
The vulgar person is bright,
I alone am so dull and toneless.
The vulgar person is clear,
I alone am so dull and opaque.
I am drifting, I am not anchored,
Swinging back and forth, I am not attached.
In general, everybody has something to do,
I alone am at a loose end, aimless.
I alone am different from the others,
But I value the quest for
Existence that comes from the big mother.
Good and bad, like "yes" and "no," are identical in the eyes of the omniscient sage.
But he is afraid of them, since they are infinite, and can therefore not be foreseen.
However, all told, he, the sage, is different from the people."
- Translated by Chohan Chou-Wing, Chapter 20



Personal favorite, so far:


What is the difference between saying yes because you agree
and saying yes because you want to please?
What is the difference between good and evil?
When everybody avoids something,
Does it mean it must be avoided?
How ridiculous all this is!
This mode of thinking takes one far from the ultimate Truth!

The crowds are busily involved with their daily routines.
As if they are attending a feast,
or walking up a beautiful terrace in Spring.
I alone am deserted.
The future seems unknown,
Just as an infant's future is unknown.

I appear to be tired in a directionless journey.
When everybody appears to have more than enough
I alone seem like someone who have lost everything.

Is my mind that of a fool?
People in their mundane worlds look bright.
I on the other hand look dull.
People in the mundane worlds look clever,
I on the other hand look boring.
My mind is unsettled like the open sea
and never restless like the wind.

Everyone has his properties and status.
I alone look poor and lonely.
I am different from the crowd.
I alone value drawing my nutrients from Mother."
- Translated by Lok Sang Ho, 2002, Chapter 20

What a wealth of translations — ZzzoneiroCosm

Have you seen this website?

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

Lovely stuff:


Rest your shining spirit and embrace the One.
Can you forever hold onto it?
Concentrate your breath and attain the utmost softness.
Can you become a baby?
Clean your mysterious mirror.
Can you keep it free of blemish?
Love the people and keep the state in peace.
Can you rule through no-action?
As the gate of Heaven opens and closes,
Can you play the female part?
As bright light reaches all four directions,
Can you remain unknowing?
To give people life and nurture them;
To give them life, without possessing them;
To rule them, without depending on them;
To lead them, without directing them -
This is called the mysterious Te."
- Translated by Kim Ha Poong, Chapter 10

Nice. Thank you. :smile:

Every translation is its own interpretation...

Verse 25

Stephen Mitchell

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

Ellen Marie Chen

There was something nebulous existing (yu wu hun ch’eng),
Born before heaven and earth.
Silent, empty,
Standing alone (tu), altering not (pu kaki),
Moving cyclically without becoming exhausted (pu tai),
Which may be called the mother of all under heaven.
I know not its name,
I give its alias (tzu), Tao.
If forced to picture it,
I say it is “great” (ta).

Therefore Tao is great,
Heaven is great,
Earth is great,
The king is also great.
In the realm there are four greats,
And the king is one of them.
Humans follow (fa) earth,
Earth follows heaven,
Heaven follows Tao,
Tao follows self-becoming (tzu-jan).

Ron Hogan

Something perfect has existed forever,
even longer than the universe.
It's a vast, unchanging void.
There's nothing else like it.
It goes on forever and never stops.
Everything else came from it.
I don't know what else to call it
So I'll call it Tao.
What's it like?
I can tell you this much: it's great.

Something that great lasts.
Something that lasts goes a long way.
And something that goes a long way
always comes back to the beginning.

Tao's great.
Heaven's great.
Earth's great.
And someone who's in touch with Tao is great, too.
Those are the four greatest things in the universe
and a Master is one of them.

Someone who's in touch with Tao
is in touch with the earth.
The earth is in touch with heaven.
Heaven's in touch with Tao.
Tao's in touch with the way things are.

I like this verse, at least the first stanza. I get a bit lost in the others, especially since some of the translations indicate that the other stanzas directly follow from the first. I don’t see the connection.

I’ve included Ron Hogan’s interpretation, which I can’t decide if I like. This translation was suggested by ZzzoneiroCosm. It’s much more American and less poetic than any of the other translations. If I had read it first, I don’t know if I would have been attracted to the Tao Te Ching as much as I was.

I’ve also included all of Lin Yutang’s selections from the Chuang Tzu, which I really like. It’s long so I’ve placed it in hide/reveal.

Stanza 1 - Stephen Mitchell’s translation

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

As I noted, I like this stanza. It feels like a review section before the midterm exam for the verses covered so far. I especially like the discussion of how the Tao got its name. Turns out it was just made up because we couldn’t think of anything else to call it. It’s kind of a nickname. For me that answers the paradox of Verse 1, where Lao Tzu just jumps in without explanation and names the nameless.

The subject of the cyclic return of the 10,000 things to the Tao is reiterated here. As I’ve noted in earlier posts, I struggled with this idea for a long time. Now, I see it as recognition that, while the Tao is separated into the 10,000 things by the act of naming, the 10,000 things are always returning to the Tao, i.e. that the act of creation didn’t happen 1.4 billion years ago, it’s always happening. It’s happening now. I think the idea of returning is one of those things that means different things depending on the situation.

Stanzas 2 and 3 - Stephen Mitchell translation

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

These stanzas discuss what I have called a “ladder” in previous posts. There are a lot of different ladders in the Tao Te Ching and related documents. Here are a few examples:

From Verse 42 - Stephen Mitchell

The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things.

From Verse 18 - Stephan Stenud

When the great Tao is abandoned,
Benevolence and righteousness arise.
When wisdom and knowledge appear,
Great pretense arises.
When family ties are disturbed,
Devoted children arise.
When people are unsettled,
Loyal ministers arise.

From “The Great One Gives Birth to the Waters” - a text related to the Tao Te Ching. Very confusing.

{The Great One} gave birth to Water. Water returned to assist (A) {The Great One}, [and] by means of this the Heavens were completed/manifested. The Heavens returned to assist {The Great One}, [and] by means of this the Earth was completed. The Heavens and Earth [returned to assist each other] [and] by means of this the Spirits and Luminaries were completed. The Spirits and Luminaries returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this Yin and Yang were completed. Yin and Yang returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this the Four Seasons were completed. The Four Seasons returned to assist each other (E), [and] by means of this Cold and Hot (F) were completed. Cold and Hot returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this Wet and Dry (G) were completed. Wet and Dry returned to assist each other, completing the Yearly Cycle (H) and that‘s all….

In this verse, it seems as if Lao Tzu is working to connect the cosmic and the human. To show where we fit in.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

In some of the translations, instead of “man” it says “the ruler,” which raises the question that comes up often - whether the Tao Te Ching is meant for all of us or just the bosses.

Humanity, Earth, Heaven, and the Tao are called the four great powers. There is clearly a hierarchy with the Tao at the top.

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born. — T Clark

The mysticism of some X thought to predate the universe: A perfect koanic point of focus to still the mind.

predate the universe — ZzzoneiroCosm

As it says in Verse 4, it predates God.

As it says in Verse 4, it predates God. — Clarky

I saw that. Kind of a hyperabstract Predator. Perfect mystical koanic focus point.

I saw that. Kind of a hyperabstract Predator. Perfect mystical koanic focus point. — ZzzoneiroCosm

The mysticism of some X thought to predate the universe: A perfect koanic point of focus to still the mind. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "hyperabstract," "mystical," or "kaonic." If you mean it isn't realistic, then I disagree. I've always said that Taoism is completely consistent with what we know scientifically about the universe.

We would have to take a look, then, at your definition of the universe.

When I think of the expression "the universe," I take it to refer to that which exists. So if the Tao exists, to my lights it's part of the universe.

To say it predates the universe is, to my view, to deploy a paradoxical trope aiming at a koanic pscyhical stillness. (The kind of pscyhical stillness one might achieve via the contemplation of a koan.)

If by the universe you mean the "ten thousand things," then I think there's some wiggle room.

So if the Tao exists, to my lights it's part of the universe. — ZzzoneiroCosm

As I see it, the fact that the Tao does not exist is one of the most important insights of the Tao Te Ching.

Verse 1

Therefore, by the Everlasting (ch'ang) Non-Being (wu),
We desire (yü) to observe (kuan) its hidden mystery (miao);
By the Everlasting (ch'ang) Being (yu),
We desire (yü) to observe the manifestations (chiao).
These two issue from the same origin,

Verse 2

Therefore being and non-being give rise to each other,

Verse 40

Returning (fan) is the movement (tung) of Tao.
Weak (jo) is the functioning (yung) of Tao.
Ten thousand things under heaven are born of being (yu).
Being is born of non-being (wu).

On the other hand:

Verse 4

Tao is a whirling emptiness (ch'ung),
Yet (erh) in use (yung) is inexhaustible (ying).
Fathomless (yuan),
It seems to be the ancestor (tsung) of ten thousand beings.
It blunts the sharp,
Unties the entangled,
Harmonizes the bright,
Mixes the dust.
Dark (chan),
It seems perhaps to exist (ts'un).

Verse 25

There was something nebulous existing (yu wu hun ch'eng),
Born before heaven and earth.
Silent, empty,

I can only understand this as a deployment of paradoxical language designed to assist the mind into a state of contemplative stillness.

It works admirably in that capacity, and I admire the poet's courage and insight.

But as a philosopher, to say X both exists and does not exist is to say nothing at all about X. He might as well have said Mu.


What connection do you see between science and a Tao that exists and does not exist? Are you thinking of a kind of quantum flux? If so, that's fine by me. But, as I understand it, no one really understands quantum mechanics - and I certainly don't. So I prefer to bracket QM in the manner of Husserl's epoche, or Sextus Empiricus' ataraxical counterpoise.

But as a philosopher, to say X both exists and does not exist is to say nothing at all about X. He might as well have said Mu. — ZzzoneiroCosm

You and I have a different understanding.

What connection do you make between science and a Tao that exists and does not exist? Are you thinking of a kind of quantum flux? — ZzzoneiroCosm

Quantum mechanics is science. The Tao is metaphysics. Any similarity is metaphorical.

Science is one of the ways people bring things into existence by naming them. Science is all about naming.

As I see it, the fact that the Tao does not exist is one of the most important insights of the Tao Te Ching. — Clarky

I agree we disagree. No problem.

To my view, in light of the age-old controversy surrounding the Tao, the Tao must in some sense exist. Just not in the manner of the "ten thousand things."

If the Tao has no sort of existence at all - why would we bother about it?

So to my lights, the Tao certainly exists - namely, as a paradoxical poetic abstraction designed by the poet to inspire a contemplative stillness.

So to my lights, the Tao certainly exists - namely, as a poetic abstraction designed by the poet to inspire a contemplative stillness. — ZzzoneiroCosm

And by my lights, you've missed the point. Nuff said. You can have the last word.

I'm good. Cheers. :smile:

As I see it, the fact that the Tao does not exist is one of the most important insights of the Tao Te Ching. — Clarky

It seems perhaps to exist...It existed before the beginning...Its ειδωλον existed before God was." — Lao Tzu"

I had another thought: In a number of translations, the Tao is said to exist, to perhaps exist, to seem to exist, to perhaps seem to exist. I take that to mean its existential status is uncertain. So the importance you attach to the non-existence of the Tao seems unwarranted. To say "the Tao does not exist" is to pin it down in a way perhaps anti-thetical to the spirit of the text.

No problem if you'd prefer not to continue the exchange. Just a thought. Cheers. :smile:

I had another thought: In a number of translations, the Tao is said to exist, to perhaps exist, to seem to exist, to perhaps seem to exist. I take that to mean its existential status is uncertain. So the importance you attach to the non-existence of the Tao seems unwarranted. To say "the Tao does not exist" is to pin it down in a way perhaps anti-thetical to the spirit of the text. — ZzzoneiroCosm

In my post, I included quotes that seem to contradict my position to acknowledge the ambiguity. Ambiguity is not the same as uncertainty.

Ambiguity is not the same as uncertainty. — Clarky

Not the same: but ambiguity creates uncertainty.

Not the same: but ambiguity creates uncertainty. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Given that Tao is the name for the unnamable, the ambiguity of does exist vs. doesn't exist isn't that confusing. Is it important that the Tao is unnamable? Or is it also a poetic abstraction to promote contemplation?

Is it important that the Tao is unnamable? Or is it also a poetic abstraction to promote contemplation? — Clarky

It could go either way, as I see it. It serves admirably as the latter. Its unnamability allows it some form of existence as originary X.

My mind bounces back and forth between the two in an agreeable way. Again: to read the Tao Te Ching is to come into contact with a truly brilliant mind. An uncanny brilliance.

You might say a blinding brilliance or a humbling brilliance. The kind of brilliance that makes a person happy to go silent.

It could go either way, as I see it. It serves admirably as the latter. Its unnamability allows it some form of existence as originary X.

My mind bounces back and forth between the two in an agreeable way. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I don't disagree with this. I have said before that the true sign of intelligence is the ability to hold two apparently contradictory ideas in your mind at the same time. Wave/particle. Free will/determinism. Candy mint/breath mint. Less filling/tastes great.

Certainty about the ambiguity, how will this fit into the practicalities of life, which often require firm action or unambiguous behavior? What practical value can we assign to the ambiguity?

What practical value can we assign to the ambiguity? — Frankly

The value of ataraxia.