I wonder if the constant train of insults and snide remarks from the anti NATO camp is indicative of something, some fragility, a fear. Otherwise, why the constant put down? It's symptomatic of something. Perhaps just an attempt to protect the banal nihilism or whataboutism of our times against the return of the seemingly clearcut.

I understand this very post could be seen as a snide remark, but it's an attempt to understand what motivates posters to be rude, some far more than others.

What are we discussing really? — Tzeentch

Basic principles of morality. — baker

Are we, though?

Then what moral actors' actions are we discussing here? Putin's? Biden's? Those of every individual engaged in the war?

That either sounds like it would be overly simplistic or unimaginably complicated.

You're becoming delusional again. Ukraine isn't "my sister" anymore than it is yours! :rofl: — Apollodorus

But then you immediately continue...

Russians do indeed see Ukraine as a sister nation, but one who has joined the West against Russia. In other words, a traitor — Apollodorus

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

why the constant put down? It's symptomatic of something. Perhaps just an attempt to protect the banal nihilism or whataboutism of our times against the return of the seemingly clearcut. — Olivier5

If we follow upon the observation made by Collingwood in his Essay – that people are often ‘ticklish’ about their metaphysics, and all the more so when such metaphysics remains unexplored and unconscious in them – it could be that the reason why this thread has so much verbal violence on display is NOT that it is merely a political thread (hence non philosophical) but on the contrary, that we are circling around a deeply metaphysical question, that hasn’t been teased out yet.

Maybe something like: is there justice in this world? Is there even room for hope in this matter? Is some sort of just world peace worth aiming for, and on what basis, or is history destined to be an absurd tragedy without rhyme nor reason?

Maybe something like: is there justice in this world? Is there even room for hope in this matter? Is some sort of just world peace worth aiming for, and on what basis, or is history destined to be an absurd tragedy without rhyme nor reason? — Olivier5

Looked at that way, we'd be approaching reality in a dangerously sober manner. The fighting and killing is over whose truth/lies justice/barbarism becomes history.

I wonder if the constant train of insults and snide remarks from the anti NATO camp is indicative of something, some fragility, a fear. Otherwise, why the constant put down? It's symptomatic of something. Perhaps just an attempt to protect the banal nihilism or whataboutism of our times against the return of the seemingly clearcut. — Olivier5

What is pathetic is instead the pre-pathologization of anyone who is critical of NATO, as if one could not, except by dint of moral failure, be critical of an organization that has been responsible for mass murder on an inter-continental scale. This is dangerous, dogmatic bullshit pretending to pass itself off as patronizing concern.

It's also pretty funny coming from someone whose post history in this thread is littered with jeers made for infants.

But then you immediately continue... — ssu

And your point is???

If a sister is a turncoat it doesn't follow that she ceases to be a sister. As a matter of fact, many Russians and Ukrainians still see each other as family, even now. Some literally so, as they have relatives on both sides.

In any case, ordinary Ukrainians are intelligent enough to understand that the conflict is the creation of politicians and they wish their leaders could just shake hands and make peace.

Of course, low-intelligence NATO jihadis and bots are a different matter .... :wink:

It's also pretty funny coming from someone whose post history in this thread is littered with jeers made for infants. — Streetlight

I think either he's using multiple accounts or he was delivered in the same discount pack of three as ssu and Christoffer. As I said, the CIA may have the technology, but not the intelligence. And even the technology is probably made in China from parts made in North Korea or Pakistan .... :grin:

I also don't need to resort to conspiracizing to recognize that there are plenty of people who are happy to independently spew NATO propaganda. And just to be clear, your efforts to justify Russian aggression are equally shit and no less trash.

If a sister is a turncoat it doesn't follow that she ceases to be a sister. — Apollodorus

And just when in your thinking the Ukrainians become these turncoats who ceased to be sisters and deserved the "special military operation"?

Looked at that way, we'd be approaching reality in a dangerously sober manner. The fighting and killing is over whose truth/lies justice/barbarism becomes history. — magritte

Yes, that's perhaps even closer to it.

I agree that it is 'dangerous' in a way: a lot is a stake, in the real world. That too factors in the general acrimonious tone I think.

your efforts to justify Russian aggression are equally shit and no less trash. — Streetlight

In other words, your own pronouncements are the only "non-shit and non-trash" ones here, or just "less shit and less trash" than those of others? :grin:

I've explained that already. Read people's comments or go study some history!

And while you're at it, I think you should get out of your WW1 bunker for a change and acquaint yourself with some real facts instead of swallowing your own propaganda:

This is from the European Council on Foreign Relations:

ECFR’s research shows that, while Europeans feel great solidarity with Ukraine and support sanctions against Russia, they are split about the long-term goals. They divide between a “Peace” camp (35 per cent of people) that wants the war to end as soon as possible, and a “Justice” camp that believes the more pressing goal is to punish Russia (25 per cent of people). In all countries, apart from Poland, the “Peace” camp is larger than the “Justice” camp.

Peace versus Justice: The coming European split over the war in Ukraine – ECFR

Clearly, in the real world, NATO jihadis are a small, and diminishing, minority. This may explain why they're so frustrated and angry …. :grin:

Peace versus Justice: The coming European split over the war in Ukraine – ECFR — Apollodorus

Well, as long as you keep referencing your sources, we can better assess how shitty your posts are. :rofl: Thanks for helping us! :grin:

Well, let's see ....

Mark Leonard: Transatlantic Fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States, former Chairman of the World Economic Forum’s Global Agenda Council on Geoeconomics. Essays published in Foreign Affairs, the Financial Times, the New York Times, Le Monde, Süddeutsche Zeitung, El Pais, Gazeta Wyborcza, Foreign Policy, the New Statesman, the Daily Telegraph, The Economist, Time, Newsweek.

Ivan Krastev: Member of Open Society Foundations’ global advisory board, former executive director of the International Commission on the Balkans, editor-in-chief of the Bulgarian edition of Foreign Policy. Awarded the Jean Améry Prize for European essay writing.

ECFR: named "Best New Think Tank in the World" for 2009 and 2010 by the University of Pennsylvania's annual Global "Go-To Think-Tanks" report.

neomac: ............................................ ????

So, yeah. You've definitely "proved" your "point"! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So, yeah. You've definitely "proved" your point! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: — Apollodorus

As if you got my point! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
But do carry on with your shitty rebuttals, by all means :grin:

I think you're rebutting your own "point" quite nicely. So, you're laughing at yourself ....

it could be that the reason why this thread has so much verbal violence on display is NOT that it is merely a political thread (hence non philosophical) but on the contrary, that we are circling around a deeply metaphysical question, that hasn’t been teased out yet. — Olivier5

On the contrary, I think it's been not only teased out, but spread all over the place:

... caca ... caca ... the biggest caca ... — Olivier5

... dogmatic bullshit ... — Streetlight

... load of bullshit ... — creativesoul

... shit ... — Streetlight

... shitty ... — neomac

Sounds very much like anger and frustration to me. Induced by lack of social life and too much pro-NATO propaganda .... :grin:

The 'stakes' being US hegemony, which is worth as much global death and suffering as required for its maintenance.

I think this thread can use a little bit of French love, so here you go with a pic from the visit of Macron, Draghi and Scholz to Kyiv, that's doing the rounds in social media:



Who will find the best legend for it? :-)

the best legend — Olivier5

"And then they suck your brains out through your ear."

"Is Dombas really worth this?"

The 'stakes' being US hegemony — Streetlight

I'm open to improvement. What do you suggest? Russian-Chinese hegemony, or perhaps free-for-all regional conflicts throughout the planet, either of which destroying and subjugating all weaker nations including yours?

It's much less interesting who than how. The US is nothing other than a bunch of corporations in a trench coat, and one little local improvement you can make is to eliminate the power of those corporations and in turn do away with incessant drive for war and global genocide which otherwise sustains the US and all who live in it.

one little local improvement you can make is to eliminate the power of those corporations and in turn do away with incessant drive for war and global genocide — Streetlight

Those are two things. War and genocide is in the blood of the species. What we should hope for there is limited curtailment of this drive in favor of cooperation, an example of which is the European Union.

The power of the corporations is distributed as in a pyramid. Supermarket chains have more power the local green grocer or bakery. Starting at the top of the pyramid, braking up of mega corporations in the name of maintaining national capitalist competitive goals has been done in the past. Would you settle for that?

Those are two things. — magritte

No, they aren't. And it takes living in a state as fed by blood as the US to think they are. Look, none of this is very thread relevant, so I'll leave you to it.

--

Anyway, it's adorable that the response to "the US is willing to starve and destroy global livelihoods for the sake of it's hegemony" is "yeah buutttt what you youuuu do"? Brain rot.

The domination of the White Man over the rest of the world since the sixteenth century is coming to an end. It will not go on any more in Asia which is awake. [...]
India belongs naturally to other Asiatic countries rather than western. Her ties with Britain are more artificial than her ties with China. The domination of the White Man over the rest of the world since the sixteenth century is coming to an end. It will not go on any more in Asia which is awake. I am convinced of that. Our domination came into being as a result partly of our voyages, partly by a skilful use of commerce and partly as a result of science. As India develops industrially she will also develop as a military power.
It is for Indians themselves to settle their differences. It is not any of our business. I should, therefore, announce that twelve months after the Japanese war we shall abandon our responsibilities for India. I do not think we ought to insist on Dominion Status. The idea that India should become a dominion is futile and quite contrary to her geographical necessity. Other dominions had historical affinity with us, but India culturally has not and will not belong to us. Her affinity will be with Asiatic countries. Her history and culture are contrary to ours.
The era of White domination will not last. It cannot be revived. White domination has made it impossible for a stable world. You cannot have peace in the world secured as long as some people want to keep themselves in power. There will be hundred and one injustices in the world as a result of this domination. The other side has a feeling of hatred and contempt for those who dominate. Until you get approximately an equal standard in East and West you cannot go on.

Bertrand Russell, Promise Freedom to India after War with Japan, Bombay Chronicle, 10 March 1945

When a philosopher's vision extends over several centuries, one must not quibble if his predictions are a little slow in coming to complete fruition. I suspect that Russia is not included in Russel's 'domination of the White Man', but is part of 'the rest of the world'. And I suspect he had not given enough scrutiny to the American White Man either.

I think this thread can use a little bit of French love. — Olivier5

Yep. Marry your mother if you can, or your semi-mummified school teacher, if that fails .... :grin:

Who will find the best legend for it? — Olivier5

“Damn it! He’s had too much Italian garlic and Chinese frogs (AGAIN)!”

The 'stakes' being US hegemony, which is worth as much global death and suffering as required for its maintenance. — Streetlight

Wars can be unpredictable. America’s current pharaoh may yet become the biggest collateral casualty of his jihad on Russia. Right now, the Saudis have him by his cojones and no one knows how long he’s going to last. Probably, not as long as Putin?

Biden on Gas Prices: Bashing Exxon Profits, Meeting With Saudi Prince – Business Insider

Not only he’s fallen off his bike, but more voters are now willing to vote for Trump than for Sleepy Joe who, let’s face it, will soon be asleep for good:

Poll: Biden disapproval hits new high as more Americans say they would vote for Trump

Meanwhile, Russia has got a large pile of foreign currency and gold reserves, as well as emergency funds. It has reduced to a minimum its foreign debt and its dependence on foreign borrowing, and it has become a net creditor on international money markets. That’s why America hates Russia, because it doesn’t depend on US banks and can't be blackmailed into submission to US rule!

If Russia keeps developing its industries for key technologies, especially in the defense sector, it will not only do just fine, but it can even come out of this stronger.

IMO Russia is becoming a key challenger of American hegemony and should be supported by all who are against an US-controlled unipolar world order (or world government by Big Oil, Big Bucks, and Big Guns).

I suspect that Russia is not included in Russel's 'domination of the White Man' — unenlightened

I don't see why it should be. Russia has been there since prehistoric times. White America and Australia were imported from other parts of the world.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

I suspect that Russia is not included in Russel's 'domination of the White Man'
— unenlightened

I don't see why it should be. — Apollodorus

Only the skin colour.

What are we discussing really?
— Tzeentch

Basic principles of morality.
— baker

Are we, though?

Then what moral actors' actions are we discussing here? Putin's? Biden's? Those of every individual engaged in the war?

That either sounds like it would be overly simplistic or unimaginably complicated. — Tzeentch

The basic principles of morality are what is at stake here. They are what underlies every individual assessment, every individual response, every post.

Discussed directly instead through particular examples, what some people have as their first principles of morality would be too egregious to state.

The pull of political discussion is that it allows people to express their first principles of morality indirectly, and thus still feel the pleasure of doing something that would sometimes be unacceptable in polite society.