So you agree, do you, that we ought not to create them then? Or at least that there is a desert-based case for drawing that conclusion? — Bartricks
The premise disputed was "deserving". — 180 Proof
:up:↪Bartricks You are not looking at this with any sense of depth it seems. — I like sushi
@schopenhauer1 @Bartricks ... :yawn:Should one unnecessarily harm existing persons? No.
Does "not procreating" prevent unnecessary harm to existing persons? No.
Do nonexisting persons (e.g. Frodo Baggins, Mother Theresa, hypothetical offspring) warrant moral concern? No.
I would not agree to not create them just because they might suffer at some point or other like everyone else does. — punos
Innocence does not always equal innocence. — spirit-salamander
There is the more metaphorical innocence of the animal, and there is the moral innocence of a person. — spirit-salamander
Regardless, your argument begs the question regarding optimism and pessimism. An absolute optimism states that to be is always better than not to be, so that it is even better to be in hell than not to be at all. — spirit-salamander
It just seems to me that if everyone did what you are suggesting then humanity will go extinct in short order. — punos
Do you think anyone deserves to live? — punos
Do you regret being born? — punos
The OP's use of "deserves" suggest something a newborn has not earned. "Merit" has nothing to do with it. In this context, for clarity's sake, I differentiate "deserving" from earning – nobody "deserves" a priori (by definition), rather everyone either earns or does not earn (re: agency ~ responsibility). As I (and others) have already pointed out to Barftrix the Incorrigible, nobody – no baby – (A) deserves to be harmed or (B) deserves not to be harmed; thus, the antinatalist argument in the OP falls apart almost immediately because the notion "deserves" renders its premise incoherent. — 180 Proof
I do not believe people embrace antinatalism because of compelling argument. They embrace antinatalism because of compelling experience. — Bitter Crank
Here is an alternative: instead of trying to keep people from procreating because of occasional suffering, or potential harm, would it not be better to try to make the world a better place with less suffering, and less potential for harm? — punos
It's like trashing your car because of a flat tire. — Jackson
Secondly, "a flat tire" represents an objective problem with an easy solution, whereas the problems and suffering that people experience, indeed the worst kinds, are often neither objective nor easily solvable. — Tzeentch
stupid is as stupid does. — 180 Proof
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