That's a very important conjecture. To be honest, 180 Proof, I don't know what to answer precisely because I don't know what it feels like when someone survive a suicide-attempt. I wish most of the cases we see the scenario which @Tom Storm shared with us and they end up finding a cause to keep living.
But, probably, there are other examples of survivors that realize that they do not want to die because the act itself can hurt others connected to them such as family or friends

Well, as far as I can tell, suicide is usually/always the last option. In other words, it's forced upon the suicider. To that extent, the person who takes their own life isn't guilty of any offense as free will isn't part of the equation.

The logic of the suicider is plain & simple: Algos or Thanatos and we all know everybody's terrified of jahanam.

That said, killing oneself is, if you examine it closely, a gross aberration - it goes against the very essence of (all) life which is to, well, live (for as long as possible with immortality being no. 1 on the wish list). Ergo, the antagonism the living bear against suiciders is as expected - they (the living) are made a mockery of (their basic survival instinct is being ridiculed) and nobody and I mean nobody likes to be laughed at/made the butt of a joke.

Suicide is an insult to life, delivered in the most :vomit: ways possible.

There's more...chew on that for the moment.

Suicide is an insult to life, delivered in the most ways possible.

I think one of the main inconvenients here is the act of seeing "life" as something sacred or worthy. You see suicide as an insult to life because (I guess) you understand there are a lot of reasons to keep living doesn't matter the "temporary" problems we have to deal with.
But what if I say that life is pointless... I am not insulting myself but doing an act of revolution against the status quo. Some see it as the worst scenario but others see it as a solemn solution to the problems.

I don't know what you are saying anymore.
Do you agree that it is contrary to one's interest to kill oneself, extreme unending agony aside?

What I want to say is that suicide depends on circumstances. We cannot say as an overall that the act itself is "contrary to one's interests" because we do not really know what struggles someone who has such big dilemma.
So, I am not sure I am agree if suicide is contrary to my own interests.

But killing someone harms them, yes? It may sometimes be the lesser of two evils, but it's still a harm, isn't it?

Well, yes. It is harm to all the people who are related to the suicidal because they would suffer their lost, but I do not see it as harmful to the dead one because he/she chose this path to end their pain

So killing someone does that person no harm?! Killing an unloved hermit is a harmless thing to do?
This doesn't sound right at all. Death is a colossal harm to the one who dies. That's why it's used as a punishment. That's why killing others is so wrong. And it's why killing oneself to avoid a boring meeting would be stupid (whereas killing oneself to avoid endless agony would not be).

That's why killing others is so wrong.

Exactly, and do you know why is it wrong? Because the killer is selfish and is manipulating other people's lives. That's why is unfair and sad one someone kills another. Each human should have the right of deciding about their own existence. I mean, the chance to decide whenever I don't want to live anymore

We are talking at cross purposes. I am not denying that a person is entitled to kill themselves if they so wish.
My point is that death is extremely harmful to the one who dies. And thus to kill oneself is to do oneself a great harm. It is going to be irrational under most circumstances. It would be a case of jumping out of the frying pan into an even hotter fire.

But... Do you mean harmful in a physical or psychological context? Because for sure it is so painful killing myself if I do sp in a hot fire. Nevertheless, a suicidal tend to find out another alternatives such as hanging.
It would sound so drastic but after doing such act the suicidal would find inner peace and stop suffering from psychological harm

So if you hang an unloved hermit you have done him no harm?

Physically yes, but not mentally.
Anyway, why I have to do such act? The hermit can do it himself

The point is that killing the hermit does the hermit great harm.

So death is a great harm to the one who dies. A huge harm. It's one of the biggest.

So, if you kill yourself, then you are doing yourself a great harm.

That's a stupid thing to do, unless doing it prevented you from coming to an even greater harm.

Imagine you are upset one day and you decide to saw one of your ears off, a la van gogh. That's not sensible. You've made your situation worse, not better. Now you are upset and you only have one ear.

That's what death does. It makes our situation worse, not better. The only exception would be if your life is terrible with no prospect of it being otherwise.

life is pointless — javi2541997

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. — Albert Camus (The Myth of Sisyphus)

seeing "life" as something sacred or worthy. — javi2541997

My oversight, apologies.

Algos hunts with the hounds and runs with the hares. O horror of horrors! Do you see any light at the end of this tunnel? I'm dead beat! You're on your own! Good luck.

Imagine you are upset one day and you decide to saw one of your ears off, a la van gogh. That's not sensible. You've made your situation worse, not better. Now you are upset and you only have one ear. — Bartricks

But here Van Gogh injured himself without dying. It is not the same goal. Probably he did so, as you explained, just to calm some of his anger but I guess he never thought about suicide at all.

The only exception would be if your life is terrible with no prospect of it being otherwise. — Bartricks

Then, you are agree with me with the fact that suicide could be the ending to many unfixable problems.

Do you see any light at the end of this tunnel? — Agent Smith

I see it but I am not brave enough to walk up there :death:

It's quite simple. No persons, no religions.

No, it's that a certain critical population level is required for the existence of a priestly, educated class. In Rome, just maintaining the population at a steady level required that every woman have like five babies (or thereabouts, don't remember the specifics).

I see it but I am not brave enough to walk up there :death: — javi2541997

I'm sorry.

That's a stupid thing to do, unless doing it prevented you from coming to an even greater harm — Bartricks

Keep it coming! :clap:

Were there any cases of suicides during the holocaust? I don't recall reading of mass suicides among those interned in Nazi concentration camps. Too tired to think (of killing oneself out of hell)?

Most interesting. — Ms. Marple

Were there any cases of suicides during the holocaust? I don't recall reading of mass suicides among those interned in Nazi concentration camps — Agent Smith

That's a pretty good question and thought. I do not recall a specific case of a suicidal victim doing such act just to avoid the concentration camp.
Nevertheless... we have to highlight that Adolf Hitler killed himself before seeing the loss of Nazi Germany

Adolf Hitler killed himself — javi2541997

He was well-fed and well-rested...he had time to ruminate.

I do not see it as harmful to the dead one because he/she chose this path to end their pain — javi2541997

How does one know that, certainly causing so much "pain" to family and friends, one's own "pain" will end with deliberately killing oneself?

At first, I thought there was something paradoxical in that the warning shot (Algos/Hell) is more dangerous/terrifying than taking a bullet (Thanatos/Death).

However, it makes sense like this :point: $Algos \to Thanatos$

How does one know that, certainly causing so much "pain" to family and friends, one's own "pain" will end with deliberately killing oneself? — 180 Proof

We do not have clear information about after death experience yet. This kind of "uncertainty" gives some "hope" to all of those who are suffering a lot of pain in life.
It is true that the act of suicide could be selfish towards family and friends who would suffer the lost of the deceased.
I think suicide should be understood in an individualistic way. If we see it as "collective" it would lose their real nature or meaning.

How does one know that, certainly causing so much "pain" to family and friends, one's own "pain" will end with deliberately killing oneself? — 180 Proof

I don't know what it was like in the USA, but here 30-40 years ago there was often a puerile romanticism around suicide, especially amongst nascent-Emo young people who thought that the act of suicide had a mystique to it. The option of suicide was often wielded at others with passive-aggressive defiance. It was a kind of an aesthetic, soft-core existentialist posture. Was that just us?

I think it was fairly pervasive here in the states in the 90s & 00s in the emo / grunge scenes. Outside of those "teen-angsty" scenes though I'd lost a few friends and a couple of exes in the 80s to suicide (and a few more to fatal thrill-seeking since). Plenty more suicide attempts too.

I am not sure how to distinguish between willful ending of life from choosing to not defend life. I have one old friend who fought to the last and another who did not. They are both dead now.