How do you deal with your 'monster'? Have any of you defeated it? — Question

Oh, dear. I can't imagine how you can fight with nothingness. Become one with it? — Question

Accept it, not embrace it, basically Jung.

To me suicide has never occured. I think I'm just too arrogant to even consider it.

But the serpent was beautiful, not terrifying. — Noble Dust

Jung argues that serpents in dreams represent lust and rejection.

But I'm mostly oblivious about Jung, the idea is that Jung is not oblivious about psychological afflictions such as depression.


My view on the topic is so simple to the point of being simplistic: depression is a mood, not an illness, treat it accordingly.

My view on the topic is so simple to the point of being simplistic: depression is a mood, not an illness, treat it accordingly. — Noblosh

So, depression is classified as a mood disorder. But our moods (read 'emotions') are extremely influential to our thinking.

The thing that bothers me about mild depression (NOT major debilitating depression, just mild chronic depression) and the various chronic objective social problems that we develop (alcoholism, drug addiction, bad management of money, abysmal performance in school, religious extremism--basically incompetent life skills--is this:

Are people functioning more poorly now (now = the present and back... 50 years) than they functioned before? And if so, why?

Are economics the problem--Too many people pursuing too few opportunities?
Is life becoming too complicated for people to manage? Too many options, too many details?
Is (American) society deteriorating -- becoming too incoherent, not cohesive enough, too chaotic?
Is the cause external to individuals: easy access to drugs, credit, too much exposure to media, etc.?
Is "the family" failing its function of preparing children to succeed in this society?

People say all of the above, none of the above, don't know, impossible to tell, it's the same today as it has always been... But it seems to me that a really significant number of people are doing poorly in this society -- and not because of major mental illnesses, which don't seem to be increasing in frequency.

Are economics the problem--Too many people pursuing too few opportunities? — Bitter Crank

Opportunities abound. Seriously. But many people are not willing to put in the effort, and go through the fear, anxiety, etc. required to take the opportunities. They also lack discipline, will, and intelligence.

Many people expect to find a job - why? - because they think they're entitled to it. Nobody is entitled to anything. But yet many people wait on the state - give me this, give me that, make the economy better, clean my street, etc. Bullshit.

The reason why it seems like there are too few opportunities is because everyone is copying everyone else (why? because it feels safe to do that - you have to handle a lot of anxiety when you do something completely different and out of the ordinary). Everyone wants a job with Apple, because Apple pays the best. Of course it's going to be fucking hard to get that - everyone is after it. You have to look for hidden treasures that others, in their irrational mania, are ignoring.

Is life becoming too complicated for people to manage? Too many options, too many details? — Bitter Crank

I feel people have no direction in life, and expect and desire at all costs to enjoy life. This attachment to the enjoyment of life, instead of to more objective goals - such as building a family, spiritual enlightenment, building a business, etc. - leads to chaos. The fake media also promotes a fake vision of life, and instills fake values into people - that's also a big problem. I think their desire to have fun and enjoy life is what ensures the destruction of most people. Survival comes at a cost - discipline, hard work, and intelligence. Failing time and time again, and trying again and again and again. Not once, or twice, or three times - but every day, 365 days a year, for years on years.

The most profound aspect that bothers me is a lack of desire or will to do things in my best interest. — Question

Who cares what's good for you eh? That's a monstrous attitude.

No wonder the poor monster has nightmares about you.

No wait, are you the monster having nightmares, or are you the nightmare having monsters? Are you the selfish git that wants what's in your best interest, or the self-condemning git that doesn't? It's all so confusing. Will the real Question please?

How do you deal with your 'monster'? Have any of you defeated it? — Question

Ask your monster questions, what is it trying to do, what does it want, is it really your enemy? Try and become its servant, it will reward you. Killing yourself kills the monster, that's significant. But don't kill the monster, it's your best friend.

This attachment to the enjoyment of life, instead of to more objective goals... — Agustino

The fucking nerve of these lazy sons of bitches -- wanting to enjoy life. Take them out and shoot them!

Opportunities abound. Seriously. — Agustino

Perhaps opportunities abound, but not everyone is able to identify them. Not everyone is able to exploit the opportunities they identify. I would say many unsuccessful and unhappy people have lacked the knowledge (from an early age) to identify a bona fide opportunity. I blame ignorance of how the world works more than laziness.

building a family, spiritual enlightenment, building a business — Agustino

Projects of this sort require a foundation of skills and knowledge. If one is ignorant of what the required skills and knowledge are, they can't develop a plan to obtain them. Again, ignorance.

Survival comes at a cost - discipline, hard work, and intelligence. — Agustino

True enough, but someone must be raised in an environment where discipline, hard work, and intelligence are fostered. Reaching adulthood without these traits, without a foundation of skills and knowledge, and ignorance of how to identify a practical opportunity (one which can actually be exploited) leaves one pretty much screwed.

So, astute, but poorly prepared adults can put 2 and 2 together and understand that they need to get what is needed, and some people rehabilitate themselves, even if they were raised to become economic cripples.

I can cite my own case: even though I did OK during my working years, there were times I made strategic errors that many of my peers didn't. For instance, as the AIDS crisis expanded in the late 1980s, smart people abandoned the non-profits that were first responders and moved on to city/county/and state programs which would be doing the heavy lifting over the long run. I stayed glued to to the non-profits. By the time I figured out that I should jump ship, the city/county/and state boats had filled up.

OR, I should have moved on to a new problem -- which I did, but didn't find something even remotely as interesting as HIV and AIDS. I would liked to have worked with tuberculosis, but unfortunately there were not enough cases around to support much work with TB.

A quote by Giacomo Leopardi has always resonated with me:

“Allow it to be reasonable, to kill oneself; allow it to be against reason to resign one’s mind to life: surely it is still a savage and inhumane act. And it ought not to gratify one more, nor should one choose, to be in accord with reason, and a monster, than in tune with nature, and a man.”

Remember how Nietzsche told us not to become monsters?

Leopardi is, in my opinion, a proper moderate between the two extremes of Schopenhauerean asceticism and Nietzschean vitality.

The fucking nerve of these lazy sons of bitches -- wanting to enjoy life. Take them out and shoot them! — Bitter Crank

>:O "We are not here to enjoy ourselves" - Ludwig Wittgenstein

(Also, no need to shoot them. They're already shooting themselves by their terrible choice).

I would say many unsuccessful and unhappy people have lacked the knowledge (from an early age) to identify a bona fide opportunity. I blame ignorance of how the world works more than laziness. — Bitter Crank

That may be true, but I've encountered many people to whom, for example, I presented an opportunity, and who have refused it because of the risk involved, instead preferring the safer, but less rewarding and easier path. I'm not sure if that's just because of fear, or because of laziness - but perhaps both. Lack of self-belief and self-esteem is a major cause.

In addition, most people have a sort of crab mentality, and want everyone to be average in terms of knowledge, capabilities, and achievements - just like them. That's why philosophy is seen as snobbish for example.

If one is ignorant of what the required skills and knowledge are, they can't develop a plan to obtain them. Again, ignorance. — Bitter Crank

Okay, but what about those people who are told - these are the skills you need, and this is how you can learn them - and who still don't stick with it? They are clearly either (1) afraid, or (2) lazy - or perhaps (3), they don't believe it's true - OR a combination of the three. Or perhaps they just don't want to sacrifice "fun" ;)

Reaching adulthood without these traits, without a foundation of skills and knowledge, and ignorance of how to identify a practical opportunity (one which can actually be exploited) leaves one pretty much screwed. — Bitter Crank

Common, people can learn by themselves. I don't think I've learned ANY of the practical skills I'm making use of these days except by myself. I lived in a very protective family environment, so everything I've learned afterwards, was achieved through my own self devoted study. And trust me -
my parents literarily didn't allow me to do anything as a child - I didn't even buy anything by myself, since I had no money given to me as a child. I would only play close to my house at the countryside, because I wasn't allowed to travel far like other kids. The very first time I started moving farther from home when I moved to the city I was shit scared - but I forced myself through it. The very first time I moved to UK I was shit scared too - but I forced myself through it. So how did I learn practical skills? While people at 18 were smoking shit, partying and drinking, I was working, studying, reading, etc. I worked. Day after day - and I'm still working day after day today. When all else fails, who will people come to? Me - because I'm the only one sitting on solid ground. Then they'll complain how "unlucky" they have been, how their wife cheated on them, how they got fired, etc. etc. - NO WONDER! There's a price to be paid for stupidity and complacency.

True there are tragedies and bad luck. But the tragedies and bad luck are much rarer than we usually think. Most people do it with their own hands. Marry the wrong person because he was a cool guy, had a nice car, you were attracted to him, or whatever bullshit - then no wonder he cheats on you. How is that any wonder?! Really it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Or the guy who marries the prettiest girl in highschool that every guy wanted to be with, and who loved clubbing, smoking weed and having fun - then he wonders that she cheats on him! >:O >:O Jesus Christ...

That's why when I hear things like this I don't have much sympathy because I've struggled to learn almost everything by myself, with little to no help from those around me. Quite the contrary in fact, my external environment has often pulled me down. I had no skills of identifying a practical opportunity - at least none that I was taught by someone else - and I forced myself to learn it. It was nothing but pure, cold self-belief that allowed me to pull through. That time when you sit alone, and alone plot without any external aid, knowing that you lack the skills, but determined to go through, and trusting in your own destiny. The time when you feel pain, but push through the pain nevertheless. It's the will that makes it possible - it's nothing but the will to persevere despite the fear and trembling.

This pessimistic claptrap, no skills, no education, etc. is nothing but excuses. People need to stop making excuses, and then go to drink another bottle of fucking wine. No wonder they're still fucked - the wine ain't gonna pull them out of the hole! I mentioned the idea of enjoying life that is the problem before. It is the problem. Once one has given up that idea, it's easy to push oneself to the limit, endure pain, and do what's necessary - there's nothing holding you back anymore - no lost opportunities, no nothing. Just freedom to act. To climb out of the hole.

Schopenhauerean — darthbarracuda

Schopenhauerian. :P

depression is a mood, not an illness, treat it accordingly. — Noblosh

Depression as a mood is different from one who is suffering from a mental illness like major depression.

Opportunities abound. Seriously. But many people are not willing to put in the effort, and go through the fear, anxiety, etc. required to take the opportunities. They also lack discipline, will, and intelligence.

Many people expect to find a job - why? - because they think they're entitled to it. Nobody is entitled to anything. But yet many people wait on the state - give me this, give me that, make the economy better, clean my street, etc. Bullshit. — Agustino

If I graduate college with a degree that can't land me a proper job, sure, I'll still have boundless opportunities to be a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper. But, y'know, FUCK that. I feel that if I'm educated to do x or y in field z, then I'm entitled to a job in that sector, not to work some piss shit job like I could have done without a degree beforehand.

This attachment to the enjoyment of life, instead of to more objective goals - such as building a family, spiritual enlightenment, building a business, etc. - leads to chaos. — Agustino

Objective goals like those can be just as chaotic and disappointing for people,
though.

Common — Agustino

>:o

tragedies and bad luck are much rarer than we usually think. — Agustino

Seeing as life itself is a tragedy, I don't see how this is true.

My view on the topic is so simple to the point of being simplistic: depression is a mood, not an illness, treat it accordingly. — Noblosh

Have you experienced major depression?

Potayto potahto

My advice is don't indulge in gloom and depression. A lot of people just like to wallow in that stuff for some reason and that is pointless. Cheer up, get a hobby, do something fun and maybe a little risky. If you still can't shake yourself out of it get some professional help. Unless you're in a really fucked up situation suicide is just senseless, you're gonna be dead in a few short decades anyway so you might as well ride it out on the off chance that things get better. If life is meaningless then it's meaningless, that would suck but it's no reason to off yourself.

Not in this case tho.

Though, tho? ;)

You got it! (Y)

Are people functioning more poorly now (now = the present and back... 50 years) than they functioned before? And if so, why?

Are economics the problem--Too many people pursuing too few opportunities? — Bitter Crank

I think so, inequality has been rising since the 70's or 80's, and such, people are working late into their lives and automation is taking away jobs contrary to what some people say. Social safety nets are on the chopping block. Sure, some conservative will tell you that you can now afford a great OLED TV nowadays and enjoy some of the lowest food costs; but, that is irrelevant when you can't climb the social ladder. Trickle down has yet to work for the matter.

But don't kill the monster, it's your best friend. — unenlightened

It's an oppressive and overbearing friend, I can add.

My advice is don't indulge in gloom and depression. — Sivad

This isn't how depression works. It's not something the person is in control of. It's a sickness.

and who have refused it because of the risk involved, instead preferring the safer — Agustino

Some people are just more risk averse than others, and most people are more risk tolerant for one kind of risk than another. Some people will take great risk in athletics (climbing dangerous mountains) but are totally risk averse when it comes to money. I think risk tolerance/risk aversion is determined biologically -- at least to some degree.

This pessimistic claptrap, no skills, no education, etc. is nothing but excuses. — Agustino

No one can argue that there are no lazy, no stupid, no ambitionless, no too risk averse to try anything people. They are out there. But, Agustino, most people do not excel, do not exceed expectations, do not achieve miracles. They just get along fairly well, grow old, and die. People like you excel first, achieve miracles, then get old and die. Of course, you haven't gotten old yet; time will tell whether you die first.

>:O "We are not here to enjoy ourselves" - Ludwig Wittgenstein — Agustino

If Ludwig didn't enjoy himself while he was here, I see no need to follow suit.

This isn't how depression works. It's not something the person is in control of. It's a sickness. — Noble Dust

I think it is to a certain extent, despair could swallow any one of us if we let it. Some people just never developed good coping skills, that's where counseling can be helpful. If the problem is too severe to be treated by therapy alone then medication is probably something to consider. If a person hasn't experienced any horrific tragedies or traumas or are facing some fate worse than death and they're contemplating suicide because of some general existential despair, well then they're just blowing life way out of proportion. They're taking it all far too seriously.

But it seems to me that a really significant number of people are doing poorly in this society -- and not because of major mental illnesses, which don't seem to be increasing in frequency. — Bitter Crank

Talking about correlation, I'm the under the impression that consumerism is at its height and that people now demand that which there's no genuine offer for: meaning. They crave importance, they seek purpose, yet they never address themselves, after all the solutions must be out there just waiting to be shopped.

but unfortunately there were not enough cases around to support much work with TB. — Bitter Crank

I think you meant fortunately* but I guess to each their own.

I mentioned the idea of enjoying life that is the problem before. It is the problem. Once one has given up that idea, it's easy to push oneself to the limit, endure pain, and do what's necessary - there's nothing holding you back anymore - no lost opportunities, no nothing. Just freedom to act. To climb out of the hole. — Agustino

Basically, the work ethic capitalism is based upon. But what I don't understand is, what's necessary? Making a living? To what end? Staying alive? That's not an end in itself.
You may find meaning in diligence but I suspect that is precisely because others don't and so I find you blaming them ironical.

Seeing as life itself is a tragedy — Heister Eggcart

Implying one can choose to be born.

If I graduate college with a degree that can't land me a proper job, sure, I'll still have boundless opportunities to be a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper. But, y'know, FUCK that. I feel that if I'm educated to do x or y in field z, then I'm entitled to a job in that sector, not to work some piss shit job like I could have done without a degree beforehand. — Heister Eggcart

First there's nothing wrong with working as a trash collector or a McDonalds burger flipper if that's where you have to start. What's all this pursuit of status and pride because of a fucking college degree?
The truth is that a degree means almost nothing these days - university isn't even that hard anymore. It's not like you graduated a university in Newton's day - no you graduated a University in the day and age when it is full of drunkards, druggies, and partying - everyone knows that. Everyone knows that finishing university is nothing big anymore - it's easy, if even these crazy party goers can finish it pfff - give me a break. And rightfully so - everyone is getting a degree. If you're doing what everyone is doing you're competing against everyone, what are the chances of winning that way? How are you any different from them, why should anyone pick you and not them? How do you stand out, what makes you unique?

A degree is only helpful in one situation. If you want to get a job in a big organisation. Then a degree is needed, not because it shows you have the skills (cause it probably doesn't show that - a degree is skill faking quite often) but rather because the people in charge of employing you need a way to justify hiring you in case you do a shit job. Then they can tell the higher up managers/bosses, "oh well, he had a degree, his paper work was all okay, he was certainly the most qualified, I couldn't have done any better!" - save their own bottoms. That's when a degree is needed. Most of this world is built on forgery and fakery, not on intelligence and skill anyway - it's all smoke and mirrors, because people are damn lazy and don't put heart in their work - they just want social status and prestige, being seen well by others. What did Napoleon say - "a soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon". But how did Napoleon himself think? "A throne is only a bench covered with velvet"

But, if you seek employment with smaller companies, where the owner is directly in charge, if s/he's a smart guy/girl and does the hirings themselves, then s/he won't care whether or not you have a degree or no degree. Only one question will matter - can you do a great job?

And getting a job isn't your only alternative. You could either work as self-employed (as a contractor or freelancer) or start your own business in some field you know about. The possibilities are all there, you just have to look for them and take them. You aren't entitled to a job in any field, regardless of your education. There is no entitlement in this world, you can either provide value to others, or you can't.

inequality has been rising since the 70's or 80's — Question

Along with laziness, drug use, and partying. I wonder why.

I think it is to a certain extent, despair could swallow any one of us if we let it. — Sivad

I doubt that. The experience of despair swallowing oneself is not a universal experience. And no, I'm not playing the martyr here; this should be common sense. When faced with despair, the average person reverts back to the traditions, people, and comforts that give their lives meaning, and this is, as far as I can tell, perfectly sound. Those of us who can't do so have nothing to revert back to, and so we take a look at the abyss we find ourselves in front of. Not everyone get's here. There's not even anything dramatic about it; it's just a fact of life.

Some people just never developed good coping skills, that's where counseling can be helpful. — Sivad

The problem here is this mindset places the impetus on the person to develop those skills. The reality is that context, environment, is what enables or prevents someone from developing those skills. This means the onus is not specifically on them to make such developments, at least during developmental stages.

If a person hasn't experienced any horrific tragedies or traumas or are facing some fate worse than death and they're contemplating suicide because of some general existential despair, well then they're just blowing life way out of proportion. They're taking it all far too seriously. — Sivad

A "tough love" approach to the problem of suicide, like you're using here, is incredibly inappropriate. Tough love is appropriate when dealing with someone unwilling to face the cold hard reality of their situation. "Soft love", if you will (as the alternative to tough love), is appropriate when dealing with someone unable to even acknowledge their own self-worth. Survey any number of depressives or suicidals, and 99.9% will tell you they fit the latter category. Telling someone at risk of suicide that they're "taking it all far too seriously" has a high potential of that person taking you far too seriously, and ending their life.

If Ludwig didn't enjoy himself while he was here, I see no need to follow suit. — Bitter Crank

What's the point of enjoying yourself BC, you'll end up in the same grave, and it will be as if the enjoyment never existed. Rather do something (or try to do something) you can be proud of, and be an upstanding character. That's all that can be asked of life.

Some people are just more risk averse than others, and most people are more risk tolerant for one kind of risk than another. Some people will take great risk in athletics (climbing dangerous mountains) but are totally risk averse when it comes to money. — Bitter Crank

I agree, but risk tolerance can be changed if you force yourself to undertake more risks.

People like you excel first, achieve miracles, then get old and die. Of course, you haven't gotten old yet; time will tell whether you die first. — Bitter Crank

Well, based on my experience, people who work a lot, live a lot - and people who don't, don't live a lot. I remember reading Schopenhauer who said that life is movement - to live is to move, and act. Death follows suite after one ceases activity and lives in physical and mental sloth, because the body pulls back - it doesn't need to devote energy to the efficiency of its processes anymore, and thus it returns to dust.

Basically, the work ethic capitalism is based upon. But what I don't understand is, what's necessary? Making a living? To what end? Staying alive? That's not an end in itself.
You may find meaning in diligence but I suspect that is precisely because others don't and so I find you blaming them ironical. — Noblosh

Nothing is necessary. But let's see - would you rather be remembered as an upstanding man who devoted himself to the betterment of mankind, who struggled and toiled each and every day for something greater than himself - or would you rather be remembered as the sloth who never rose up to the challenge, and whose sole achievement in life was casting a shadow over the earth? In the long run, one man will rise amongst the stars and live amongst the gods, and the other one will disappear through the gates of Hades. Who will you be? Death is coming anyway - how will you meet it? Maybe you can hear the footsteps - even now, approaching. It's coming - and you can't escape. Will it find you snuggled up in a corner, begging for mercy - or will it find you fighting to your last breath, determined through sheer will not to give death the victory of crushing your spirit?

Well, based on my experience, people who work a lot, live a lot - and people who don't, don't live a lot. — Agustino

Try living in NYC. Those who work a lot party a lot; they don't do much else than these two things. They may eventually end up in a clinic, or if they're extremely lucky, they'll come out on top of their sector. Those who don't work as much...get suffocated by the city's workaholism, and have to leave, move in with a parent...etc. Not because of laziness: because of the prevailing environment of workaholism.

would you rather be remembered as an upstanding man who devoted himself to the betterment of mankind, who struggled and toiled each and every day for something greater than himself - or would you rather be remembered as the sloth who never rose up to the challenge, and whose sole achievement in life was casting a shadow over the earth? — Agustino

I'd rather not be remembered at all. The entire premise here is as empty as the materialism you critique.

Not because of laziness: because of the prevailing environment of workaholism. — Noble Dust

No my friend, it wasn't workaholism that destroyed them. It was their lust, greed, shamelessness and sloth - you were right in saying that those who "work a lot" there also "party a lot". It's the partying that killed them. The truth is - they've never worked. Not real work. It's always been fake work, for a J.P. Morgan or some shit. Useless work. Wasting time in an office. 50% of "work-time" is wasted by most people. It's, as I said before, all smoke and mirrors. Drop the smoke and mirrors.

I'd rather not be remembered at all. The entire premise here is as empty as the materialism you critique. — Noble Dust

So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it.

No my friend, it wasn't workaholism that destroyed them. It was their lust, greed, shamelessness and sloth — Agustino

Do you not consider workaholism a problem?

The truth is - they've never worked. Not real work. — Agustino

Ok, you're making a distinction here between - what? - pure labor, on the one hand, and work that has a spiritual purpose? My critique was based on a simple reading of the word "work". For instance, you recently referenced working for McDonalds in a positive light. I could think of any number of reasons why working for McD's is morally reprehensible.

Of course I agree with you that working for Chase, or some such, is morally reprehensible. The greed involved is well known. But I'm talking about the New York City ethos in general, which involves countless industries. I would venture to guess you don't have much first hand experience in understanding this ethos. You're critique here is very one-sided. What about those who work in the publishing industry (allowing you to read the books you read), or the art world (setting the bar on what is and isn't art, as ridiculous as it is?), not to mention the bodega workers who work 12 hour days 7 days a week, because they know nothing else than this? I'm saying this as someone who lives here, and has my own harsh criticisms of the ethos here.

So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it. — Agustino

Sometimes life seems a gift, other times, it seems a curse.