It's certainly a monumental decision. Whilst I agree that it can be a disastrous one, it can also be one that results in joys that many would consider to be miraculously powerful and beautiful. If suffering matters, then so do the positives. — DA671
I don't believe that there are souls floating around in the void who have an interest in not existing that we are ignoring by creating them and deciding on "their" behalf. — DA671
The simple question is, where do they get the right to make such a monumental and potentially disastrous decision on behalf of someone else? — Tzeentch
Something isn't vain just because it eventually ends. — DA671
However, due to the fact that most people do seem to cherish their lives (and optimism isn't inherently bad as long as it doesn't affect our overall analysis), I believe that it wouldn't be good to cease/prevent all the positives. — DA671
I don't think that an act that doesn't go against the interests of an existing person can be an imposition. — DA671
A few big drops cannot annihilate billions of other ones, even if they are smaller (and here, we are going to simply ignore Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr, Albert Einstein, etc.). If one knows that their action would cause more harm than good, then it would obviously be wrong to go ahead and act in that manner anyway. However, since we don't know for sure, one has to act on the basis of reasonable probabilities. — DA671
The city scenario you gave and the ratio you gave of sufferers to inhabitants would be two situations I would be compelled to fight against and alleviate. — universeness
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem (Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity). — Novacula Occami
I don't see the relevance of the distinction. — 180 Proof
One ought to take into account the consequences for one's actions, and if the consequence of one's action is the birth of another individual, one should take into account that individual's behalf before one acts. — Tzeentch
Why should the fact that many people enjoy their lives give them a right to impose it on others? — Tzeentch
It's not an imposition. — DA671
If it can be seen as one, it can also be seen as a gift. — DA671
If not "imposing" is good, then not bestowing happiness is quite problematic. — DA671
It's not relevant.Why not? — schopenhauer1
"Future states" of what?Do you like believe in future states?
An existing person? Then yes, that existing person can have future states. — 180 Proof
There isn't a being who is being forced to exist when they had a desire to not to do. — DA671
But if creation can be an imposition, it can also be a gift that gives positives that one had no way to solicit before they existed. — DA671
Nobody is being forced to exist against their will. — DA671
Anybody who believes to the contrary should not have issues with someone who says that clearly someone is being given a good they couldn't have asked for. — DA671
One does know that most people do seem to cherish their lives despite the harms they face. If one doesn't know that the negatives won't necessarily outweigh the positives, then preventing all of them cannot be given approbation. — DA671
Mental gymnastics? — Tzeentch
If one believes as long as the ratio of happy to unhappy lives isn't getting close to 1:1000,000, then I guess you have a lot of work to do. Or did I miss the part where a million people's suffering is worth a single person's happiness, but your own convenience is not? — Tzeentch
And if people were to do that by their own voluntary will, why would that be a problem? — Tzeentch
Not that there's any real danger of the entirety of mankind suddenly seeing the light. — Tzeentch
unless one believes the human endeavor is one that needs to be prolonged at any cost. — Tzeentch
I'm glad you feel that way. There's also a lot of misery though. There are many individuals who don't feel comforted, loved, encouraged, etc. They are alone, and sadly, they are many. Withering away, some even broken by the very parents that made the choice to have them in the first place. — Tzeentch
On what basis do you believe these people are living "a wonderful life" — Tzeentch
My central question remains unanswered:
The simple question is, where do they get the right to make such a monumental and potentially disastrous decision on behalf of someone else?
— Tzeentch — Tzeentch
Something which is an effort in vain to begin with. Just like death is inevitable, so is the eventual extinction of the human species. If you're of the opinion that all moral boundaries should be thrown overboard in order to prolong it I would disagree wholeheartedly — Tzeentch
And if people were to do that by their own voluntary will, why would that be a problem? — Tzeentch
Oh I have no problem with that, I merely ridicule the suggestion that such consent will ever be given by all humans that exist. Antinatalism is therefore a dimwitted forlorn proposal and a completely pointless suggestion. — universeness
You are correct, there is no danger of the human race voting for their own extinction as they are capable of rational thinking. — universeness
Yes, I would broadly agree with that as it took 13.8 billion years of happenstance to produce us, so let's try to figure out why before we decide to vote for extinction. — universeness
I'm glad you feel that way. There's also a lot of misery though. There are many individuals who don't feel comforted, loved, encouraged, etc. They are alone, and sadly, they are many. Withering away, some even broken by the very parents that made the choice to have them in the first place. — Tzeentch
Do what you can to help! — universeness
On what basis do you believe these people are living "a wonderful life" — Tzeentch
I have met many people who have told me so. — universeness
The simple question is, where do they get the right to make such a monumental and potentially disastrous decision on behalf of someone else? — Tzeentch
I disagree... — universeness
Where do you get the right to suggest that the existence of life is immoral due to the possibility of suffering or whatever else you think is a logical reason to support the antinatalist viewpoint. — universeness
The universe does not have any known moral imperatives. — universeness
Is it really that bad for someone to say that they wish the city did not exist in the first place?
Some antinatalists are our socialist brothers. Bartricks is in support of a Universal Basic Income. — Down The Rabbit Hole
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