They are both dead now. — Paine

Here is your answer then. There is not a difference between the two scenarios of your friends. One interpreted death in his own beliefs or thoughts and the other did the same too but the result is the same for both: deceased

Well, if suffering is self-caused (karma/east and you sow what you reap/west) then death (Algos' alterego Thanatos) must be too, oui? We're all committing suicide then, right?

if suffering is self-caused (karma/east and you sow what you reap/west) then death (Algos' alterego Thanatos) must be too, oui? — Agent Smith

Exactly. Well written, Sir. I see suffering and death correlated in self-caused actions. I don't see it in exterior facts but it is true that we also have to take some consideration about them.

We're all committing suicide then, right? — Agent Smith

One day, soon or after, we will be dead. Each is individual is free to choose the path to do so.

I have responded to many individuals who wanted to kill themselves. In every case I've seen it is because life has become unbearable through chronic pain, the loss of a loved one, major depression, sexual abuse, trauma - that kind of thing. Most people do find a way to work through the issues and

find reasons to live. — Tom Storm

The real question is whether those people who failed in their suicide attempt "found reasons to live" because those reasons were somehow already present for them prior to the suicide attempt, or did they find them precisely because they seriously attempted suicide.

It is imaginable that a serious suicide attempt (one where the reasonably predictable outcome of the method is death) brings about a special change in the person's cognition (on a biochemical level).

Note how suicide survivor stories differ: those who survived falls from great heights or gunshot wounds to the chest or abdomen seem to be far more optimistic than those who survived a medication overdose or slit wrists.

Suicide causes immeasurable pain and suffering to those who knew the deceased. Parents never get over it. You'd be causing immeasurable suffering to your parents and siblings. — Moses

More likely, it's those same parents and siblings -- and friends or a spouse -- who actually drive a person into suicide.

More pertinent than suicide is the prevalence and relevance of people wishing that someone would kill themselves (or generally, that they would die).

Do you agree that it is contrary to one's interest to kill oneself, extreme unending agony aside? — Bartricks

The sad irony of it all is that it can be the same people who tell you not to kill yourself who also wish you would be dead.

So death is a great harm to the one who dies. A huge harm. It's one of the biggest. — Bartricks

What's the bigger harm (or harms)?

Nevertheless... we have to highlight that Adolf Hitler killed himself before seeing the loss of Nazi Germany — javi2541997

Not just he, but many other Nazis as well.

Not just he, but many other Nazis as well. — baker

Exactly, because those Nazi officials understood suicide as a honorable ending. Quite similar to Japanese commanders after Nagasaki and Hiroshima attacks.

It is imaginable that a serious suicide attempt (one where the reasonably predictable outcome of the method is death) brings about a special change in the person's cognition (on a biochemical level). — baker

It would make a big impact whenever you feel you are closer to death than ever. It takes a while until a suicidal makes his final "choice" because he tends to plan which path is better to end his life.
If after giving a try it results in surviving that's would affect psychologically. To be honest, I would feel pretty bad with myself and think: "I am so pathetic that I can't even end my own life"
[...] I don't know. I don't think I would feel better if I survive a suicidal attempt.

Keep in mind that suicide (supposedly) is the end to all pain and suffering. It has to work. A suicidal doesn't expect to fail the attempt

A suicidal doesn't expect to fail the attempt — javi2541997

Presumably some suicide attempts are intended to fail to begin with (the harm inflicted upon oneself is clearly not grave enough).

Presumably some suicide attempts are intended to fail to begin with — baker

Then, those suicide attempts are fake. We cannot play about dying or not dying because whenever we pass through it there is no coming back. This is why, supposedly, a suicidal wants to attempt. Not come back to "life" because it "s*cks"
So, if I try a suicide attempt with the intention to fail, I am contrary to the nature of suicide itself.

Exactly, because those Nazi officials understood suicide as a honorable ending. — javi2541997

Not really. It was mainly driven by fear. Fear of being held responsible and of being put on display and fear of reprisals. Some Nazi's even killed all their children before killing themselves. They were mostly like terrified rats leaving a sinking ship.

It was mainly driven by fear. Fear of being held responsible and of being put on display and frar of reprisals. — Tom Storm

So interesting indeed. They were more afraid of the reprisals than dying and end his life destroying everything they built during Nazi Germany.

Extreme unending agony. Under those circumstances it seems the lesser of two evils and thus rational. So it must be a very great harm if that's what it takes to eclipse it.

Not really. It was mainly driven by fear. Fear of being held responsible and of being put on display and fear of reprisals. — Tom Storm

How do you know that?

Can you substantiate your claim with empirical evidence, or is it just conjecture?

They were more afraid of the reprisals than dying and end his life destroying everything they built during Nazi Germany. — javi2541997

Again:

How do you know that?
Can you substantiate your claim with empirical evidence, or is it just conjecture?

Extreme unending agony. — Bartricks

That requires belief in one's eternal damnation. This is a very specific belief.

How do you know that?

Can you substantiate your claim with empirical evidence, or is it just conjecture? — baker

This is reasonably well established, in as much as it is part of the official record left by historians such as Ian Kershaw in Nemisis and Joachim Fest Inside Hitler's Bunker: The Last Days of the Third Reich and Hugh Trevor Roper's The Last Days of Hitler and others.

Can you provide direct quotations?
Your interpretation is not in line with Nazi ideology. It's certainly an interpretation in line with what many people _wish_ that the Nazis would think and feel, or what many people believe that the Nazis _should_ think and feel, but that still doesn't make it the case.

Can you provide direct quotations? — baker

No - I don't have time to go over the books and pull them out. If that's a problem for you feel free to ignore my comment.

Your interpretation is not in line with Nazi ideology. — baker

It's not my interpretation and you're assuming that actually Nazi's actually followed their ideology even in adversity.

It's not my interpretation — Tom Storm

You framed it that way earlier on.

and your assuming that actually Nazi's actually followed their ideology even in adversity.

In WW documentaries, I have heard of suicide letters from them that give me reason to believe that they in fact did. In those letters, they said things like, "I cannot bear to live in a world ruled by an inferior race".

I also had a friend whose father was a real Nazi from WWII. I got to know him. I have reason to believe that these people would rather die, even by their own hand, than live under the rule of those they deem inferior to themselves.

I do not see that. That's a possible explanation of why we have reason not to kill ourselves unless we are in unending agony. But the point is that if we only have instrumental reason to kill ourselves if we are in unending agony, then death must be extremely harmful to the one who dies. Not quite as harmful as suffering a life here of extreme agony - hence why we would have instrumental reason to kill ourselves under those circs - but very harmful.

And that's why religions typically condemn it. It is, I think, primarily out of a concern to prevent someone harming themselves

Can you substantiate your claim with empirical evidence, or is it just conjecture? — baker

It is just a conjecture because, sadly, I am not able to know what is inside of a suicidal mind. Some defend that those commanders committed suicide trying to avoid being captured. Others defend the thesis that the killed themselves as an act of honour.
The second thesis, I completely believe it related to Japanese commanders. They did Seppuku as an act of honour towards the emperors for not winning the WWII.

We can do whatever we want to our property. For instance, my watch - I can hammer it to pieces, gift it to someone, wear it, throw it into the lake, so on and so forth! Nobody will say a thing...or will they???!!!

"Our" life, in religion, isn't ours and/or it isn't a property.

Simple!

:cool:

:rofl: Trying (hard) to reason!

Extreme unending agony. — Bartricks

That requires belief in one's eternal damnation. — baker

I do not see that. — Bartricks

Extreme unending agony is possible only in a scenario of eternal damnation. In most other scenarios, death of the body is taken to mean the end of suffering.

And that's why religions typically condemn it. It is, I think, primarily out of a concern to prevent someone harming themselves

I'm not so sure that religions' inention is that compassionate.

Others defend the thesis that the killed themselves as an act of honour.
The second thesis, I completely believe it related to Japanese commanders. They did Seppuku as an act of honour towards the emperors for not winning the WWII. — javi2541997

In traditional Japanese culture, there is also the concept of rebirth tied in with suicide; there, suicide isn't seen as the total end of one's existence, the way it is usually seen in secular Western culture.

In traditional Japanese culture, there is also the concept of rebirth tied in with suicide; there, suicide isn't seen as the total end of one's existence, the way it is usually seen in secular Western culture. — baker

Exactly, I think Japanese culture (as an overall) doesn't see death as an ending and I think that is so respectful and aesthetic. I sometimes miss the freedom of speaking about death because soon or later I will experience it. I don't want to see it as a taboo topic or so dramatic. I want to understand it as a natural process.

Extreme unending agony is possible only in a scenario of eternal damnation. In most other scenarios, death of the body is taken to mean the end of suffering. — baker

If death ends your suffering, then it's hard to see how it would be so harmful that only extreme unending agony in this world could make it in one's interest to kill oneself.

The point, however, is that death is clearly extremely harmful. That's in the bank. There's no serious dispute over it. The dispute is over 'why' it is extremely harmful, not whether it is.

Epicurus argued that death is not harmful at all, but virtually everyone rejects his conclusion - as it is so obviously contrary to reason - and debates instead what precisely has gone wrong with his argument.

The important point, where the rationality of suicide is concerned, is that the evidence that death is extremely harmful - one of the most harmful things that can befall one - is overwhelming. Poor reasoning about the harmfulness of death is also commonplace. But that it is extremely harmful is not in serious dispute.

We can note this ourselves, for who among us would recommend suicide to a person apart from under the most extreme circumstances? If death didn't harm a person, then it'd be rational to recommend it all the time. Let's say you've got to have a root canal tomorrow. Well, kill yourself, then you won't have to undergo it. The root canal will be harmful. But death won't be. Yet that's obviously extremely irrational. Why? Because death is a huge harm that eclipses by an order of magnitude the harm of a root canal.