To play devil's advocate here, do you think that merely eliminating symptoms of depression, say by the taking of medicine, also eliminates depression at one's core? — Heister Eggcart

That's a loaded question. Perhaps I reject the assumptions in your question, like the notions of depression at one's core and of asymptomatic depression. There can be asymptomatic diseases, but maybe depression isn't quite like that. There's usually a test for detecting asymptotic diseases, but how would you test for asymptotic depression, if there even is such a thing? You could look for behavioural signs, I suppose. But the fact of the matter is that someone is either depressed or is not depressed, and my point was that the latter does not necessarily mean that this someone is nevertheless coping with depression.

And I don't agree that depression never ceases to exist for those who have been depressed at one time or another. — Sapientia

Confession:

The thing that ended my long stretch of depression (25 years worth) was a crisis in the lives of my partner and myself. I was fired when I was 60 from an agency I deeply loathed (the staff, not the clients) and decided I couldn't stand looking for another job at that age. My partner had been quite depressed for several years--part of his fairly severe bi-polar disorder. In 2009 he was diagnosed with cancer and died about a year later; it was s difficult and exhausting year. I grieved his death deeply, but then one day...

...early in 2011, I realized I wasn't depressed any more. I still grieved Bob's passing, but I began to really feel that my life had changed, oddly for the better. I started to regain the ground lost to depression. My concentration, memory, decision making ability, sense of well-being, sleep, all those things. Mostly, though a sense of being happy -- despite it all -- took over. I haven't felt depressed since. I still take a small dose of Effexor (partly to stave off very physically unpleasant withdrawal).

What happened was that leaving the workforce and Bob's death resolved long standing burdens. I wouldn't have done anything different, but I was glad it was over. I could not have engineered a resolution so effective.

The truism is proved again, "Therapy means change, not adjustment."

Misery breeds company, no matter how happy you are. No one is truly happy in a miserable world. I think that when you're truly happy, then everything becomes about everyone else, because they're all such downers...

You are perpetuating a rational/emotional divide that I disagree with. I'm neither a cognitivist on the one hand nor a Humean on the other. Reason and emotion intertwine in our judgment. That's the sort of creature we are. Reason can't float free of its premisses. — mcdoodle

That is factually not true. Most therapy is done through rational means, such as searching for the root cause or trying to figure out what emotions are being held back consciously or unconsciously. Furthermore, there's the fact that two plus two will always equal four in base ten regardless of how we feel about that formal judgment.

It is not a mood disorder, but the mood itself is a result of a number of factors and they appear to be factors you may just be attempting to justify. You have the audacity to say [t]here's nothing emotional about synthetic a priori judgments, like "I am depressed" and yet seemingly avoid discussions pertaining to the decision-making, cognitive functioning, the phenomenological based on identity and the ethical application necessary to establish a clear mindset that empowers and thus alleviates the feelings you discuss. — TimeLine

Well, all of what you have said, I presume, appeals to reason and not emotion. Sure, there's emotional reasoning; but, depression tends to be treated most effectively through reason and not pills that emulate an emotion.

It is what it is, and I think that we should call it what it is, once we know what it is, contrary to Question's approach that we should treat depression as this or that based on how fruitful it will or won't be to do so, regardless of the truth of the matter. — Sapientia

No, it's not a matter of passing judgment; but, being pragmatic about depression. If we treat it only as a mood, as most people do, then we're left with the happy pills. If we treated as a resultant deep emotion about the world, then we are forced to begin an investigation into how that deep emotion came to rise about. That's what I guess I'm trying to say.

Depression is an illness just like any other. To me depression is as much philosophical as congestive heart failure.

There's something going wrong in the brain/mind of a person who suffers from depression. We don't know the mechanisms behind depression because we lack scientific knowledge of what exactly is going on in the head of a depressive.

This leads into the second aspect: unintentional self-sabotage. — 0 thru 9

Your post is really the only worthwhile post in this thread, 0 thru 9. The three aspects you mention, and especially this (gently worded) note about self-sabotage are key points. As a chronic depressive, I agree with everything you say here. I suspect those in contention with these finer points that various folks are bringing up are people who haven't actually dealt with major depression or suicidal thoughts. The cycle of miscommunication continues ad absurdum.

It is what it is, and I think that we should call it what it is, once we know what it is, contrary to Question's approach that we should treat depression as this or that based on how fruitful it will or won't be to do so, regardless of the truth of the matter. — Sapientia

So, do we know what it is? We have to wait until we know what it is to call it what it is? And Question is calling it "this" or "that", which is, what? What it is? Or not? What?

There do exist people who, for periods of time, are genuinely neither depressed, nor coping with depression, but for whom depression has no place in their life. — Sapientia

I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone was arguing otherwise. Actually, that's a hallmark of this problem; there are those who have never experienced depression. Those people, in fact, don't know what the experience is like, and can therefore add no meaningful thoughts into the discussion.

That is factually not true. Most therapy is done through rational means, such as searching for the root cause or trying to figure out what emotions are being held back consciously or unconsciously. — Question

But how does that actually support your claim that the rational/emotional divide "is factually not true"? So, therapy searches for a root cause, it tries to figure out what emotions are being held back. How do those probing actions indicate that the rational/emotional divide is false?

There's something going wrong in the brain/mind of a person who suffers from depression. We don't know the mechanisms behind depression because we lack scientific knowledge of what exactly is going on in the head of a depressive. — Purple Pond

The problem is that the brain is a different organ than the heart, for instance. Depression is an "illness" that has to do with cognition, at the very least. That's a whole different game than congestive heart failure. The heart pumps blood, but it doesn't house the entire neural network that determines how we interface with our experience.

Misery breeds company, no matter how happy you are. No one is truly happy in a miserable world. — Wosret

How does this add to the discussion about depression? This is like my uncle telling me to "buck up", basically. This is a classic example of not being able to empathize with the depressed.

No... I'm afraid that it's nothing you haven't already heard a million times before... that's why it's hardly worth saying in the first place. You're not going to think of something new. Fine some secret, get an aha moment, or in any way think and suppress your way out of it.

It won't be finding something new, it will be breaking down and accepting something you already know.

Perhaps this dependency rests of your desire to maintain it? I knew a woman who had constant anxiety, her emotional malady always present despite years passing and I soon realised that despite all the advice given, she was unable to perceive what happiness actually was to her that her happiness almost became the anxiety. — TimeLine

This is another key point. But, the dependency doesn't rest on the desire to maintain it; the dependency rests on an inability to see and act on the skewed way of life one is living. I too know people like this, and am one of these people myself; I'm aware of that. It's not that these people are unaware; it's that they're unable to make the change. There's a certain strength of the will that they (we) lack. there's a certain build-up of emotional and spiritual detritus that leads to an inability to cope with anything, or deal with anything real. This is what leads to the "alternate reality" of the depressed, the addicted, the suicidal. It is exactly that, and don't mistake it: this world is an alternate reality; a nightmare world.

No... I'm afraid that it's nothing you haven't already heard a million times before... that's why it's hardly worth saying in the first place. — Wosret

Right.

You're not going to think of something new. Fine some secret, get an aha moment, or in any way think and suppress your way out of it. — Wosret

I'm unsure what you mean here.

It won't be finding something new, it will be breaking down and accepting something you already know. — Wosret

So, you're saying I should break down and accept the thing that I already know, which is "everyone gets down sometimes"? "No one is truly happy"? And, by breaking down and accepting this, I will have dealt with my depression?

You know the truth of why therapy works. Because you think it does, and someone nice that you think is competent doesn't react badly to the things you're ashamed of, and do, and think you are and such.

Truth is, that you can make someone fall in love with you by asking each other fifty deeply personal questions, answering honestly, and responding positively. It's pretty easy to convince people that you're the greatest that ever lived, because of how little faith they have in others... and judge the quality of others based on points of ideological agreement, and personal tastes.

But how does that actually support your claim that the rational/emotional divide "is factually not true"? So, therapy searches for a root cause, it tries to figure out what emotions are being held back. How do those probing actions indicate that the rational/emotional divide is false? — Noble Dust

I posted something a while ago about Hume vs. CBT over at the old philosophy forum (now defunct). My argument was basically, that if reason or rationality is instrumental to the passions, then how is it that that very same reason or rationality cause backward causation and intendedly or unintendedly make a person less depressed as per the placebo effect or CBT (rational therapy) etc.

Here's a thread a while ago about how I view depression if people are finding it hard to understand.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/864/embracing-depression-/p1

Those people, in fact, don't know what the experience is like, and can therefore add no meaningful thoughts into the discussion. — Noble Dust

The fact is, the people who might tell us the most about depression (the people who are depressed) are observing their condition with impaired skills.

I've was depressed for a long time. I know what depression is like, in as much as I can analyze it while being a depressed person. More severely depressed people (more depressed than I) are even less able to analyze their condition. People who are not depressed at all can only speculate about what they see in terms of the behavior of the depressed.

The problem of self analysis isn't limited to the depressed. People who are deeply alienated, in a state of anomie, loneliness, and abandonment are probably not going to be very articulate about the details of their unhappy state, either.

Happy people don't know why they are happy, but they are in a better position to analyze it, because their mental facilities are presumably in excellent working condition.

You know the truth of why therapy works. Because you think it does, — Wosret

No, I don't think that.

Truth is, that you can make someone fall in love with you by asking each other fifty deeply personal questions, answering honestly, and responding positively. — Wosret

Would we really be "in love", though? Would we really love one another in a deep sense? This doesn't pertain to the OP subject, though.

The fact is, the people who might tell us the most about depression (the people who are depressed) are observing their condition with impaired skills. — Bitter Crank

The point I was trying to make to Sapentia is that experience is key. Whether dealing with depression, or mania, or any other mental state...experience is what tells about that state. Those who haven't experienced that state can only observe data. So, this is an age-old conundrum, as I'm sure you'd agree. But, who's word do we take? Sure, the mental state of the depressed is skewed, but, on the other hand, the mental state of the (not) depressed is insufficient, experientially. So, who's word do we take?

People who are deeply alienated, in a state of anomie, loneliness, and abandonment are probably not going to be very articulate about the details of their unhappy state, either. — Bitter Crank

Let me give it a shot. It's like the feeling of being outside of the world, in a glass box, observing "real people" live "real life", while I sit outside, floating in space, observing life and imagining what it would be like if I was "inside"; living real life. It's like I'm a scientist in an observatory, observing far-off life forms enact a theoretical world that I (theoretically) think I want to be a part of.

I suspect those in contention with these finer points that various folks are bringing up are people who haven't actually dealt with major depression or suicidal thoughts. The cycle of miscommunication continues ad absurdum. — Noble Dust

Per above, the depressed are not in a good position to analyze their depression. Miscommunication continues ad absurdum because (to some extent) there can not be a definitive analysis to which all will readily agree. Many millions of people claim to be depressed, and the various therapies intended to treat depression do not seem to be very effective. I've taken most of the antidepressants at one time or another, for about 25 years, and I've had a year of good talk therapy. Both helped at times, and both failed to help at times.

The observable symptoms of depression are not sure signs of depression. There are other reasons for people experiencing these reportable symptoms. Having quite a few of these symptoms likely indicates that someone is depressed, and they might be. But their own interpretation might not be all that helpful.

• Persistent sad, anxious, or “empty” mood
• Feelings of hopelessness, or pessimism
• Irritability
• Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, or helplessness
• Loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities
• Decreased energy or fatigue
• Moving or talking more slowly
• Feeling restless or having trouble sitting still
• Difficulty concentrating, remembering, or making decisions
• Difficulty sleeping, early-morning awakening, or oversleeping
• Appetite and/or weight changes
• Thoughts of death or suicide, or suicide attempts
• Aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems without a clear physical cause and/or
  that do not ease even with treatment

If a depression is caused by an irregular arrangement of neurotransmitters, then trying to figure out the cognitive cause is a waste of time. Medication may be in order, if the right one can be found. If a depression is caused by external stressors, screwed up thinking (caused by believing self-defeating theories) then providing medication may not help much. Talk therapy by a good therapist would seem to be in order. Again, the depressed person may not be able to clarify this problem for themselves or for somebody else.

Let me give it a shot. It's like the feeling of being outside of the world, in a glass box, observing "real people" live "real life", while I sit outside, floating in space, observing life and imagining what it would be like if I was "inside"; living real life. It's like I'm a scientist in an observatory, observing far-off life forms enact a theoretical world that I (theoretically) think I want to be a part of. — Noble Dust

Are you deeply alienated, in a state of anomie, loneliness, and abandonment? Or, are you approximating what you think such a miserable state would be like. There's nothing wrong with your description, per se, but...

The problem of depression used to seem clear to me, based on training and experience. As time has passed, I've come to doubt more and more about the condition of depression, especially the relatively vague and not so critical kind that so many people seem to be experiencing. It could just be the case that millions of people live in dysfunctional societies and as such have little choice but to be kind of dysfunctional.

Some people develop quirks and kinks and screwy ideas about the way life is, and these quirky, kinked, and screwed up ideas just don't work in the real world. Trying to dislodge these ideas is very difficult -- and here we're not dealing with some vague disorder as depression. So much harder is it to straighten out a depressed person whose moods, rather than their screwy thinking, is very hard to dislodge.

Per above, the depressed are not in a good position to analyze their depression. — Bitter Crank

But I addressed my thoughts on that directly above.

Miscommunication continues ad absurdum because (to some extent) there can not be a definitive analysis to which all will readily agree. — Bitter Crank

And this is key. This is the "language", if you will, of depression. A piece-meal conglomeration that is derivative of the experience of depression itself. It's an experience that doesn't avail itself to scientific descriptions because it's an experience of experience itself. This is where the limits of diagnosis come in.

The observable symptoms of depression are not sure signs of depression. There are other reasons for people experiencing these reportable symptoms. — Bitter Crank

What are statements like this even based upon? They're based upon the idea that it's a treatable cognitive malady.

So, for someone like myself who relates to all but a handful of the statements, where does that put me? in the major depressive camp, supposedly. But what does that even mean? Again, it's an an experience of experience.

Talk therapy by a good therapist would seem to be in order. — Bitter Crank

I did this for awhile, and I found it unfulfilling. The therapist just asked me leading questions that seemed to push his own agenda of what my problems were. Of course, I would hope there are better therapists out there. But the experience left me uninterested.

Are you deeply alienated, in a state of anomie, loneliness, and abandonment? — Bitter Crank

Yes.

Some people develop quirks and kinks and screwy ideas about the way life is, and these quirky, kinked, and screwed up ideas just don't work in the real world. Trying to dislodge these ideas is very difficult -- and here we're not dealing with some vague disorder as depression. — Bitter Crank

But what exactly are we dealing with, then? At this point, it seems as if the word depression has lost it's meaning, but that's because we keep applying it to a CBT-type definition. What if living in a dysfunctional world and raging against that disfunction is the definition of depression? Cognitive or otherwise?

If a depression is caused by an irregular arrangement of neurotransmitters, then trying to figure out the cognitive cause is a waste of time. — Bitter Crank

The thing is that not everyone responds to medication, or even if they do respond the efficacy isn't great enough. The same however doesn't seem to apply to talk therapy, which is more work but tends to get the job done more effectively and persistently.

Maybe you like being depressed. That would explain the thread title.

A few somewhat disconnected comments on comments...

Returning to this rather important point, I think that the truism in philosophy about rationality being the handmaiden of the passions is worth bringing up. If one subscribes to this notion, then rationality is only something instrumental to the passions and can't help in treating such emotions. — Question

Even a hardline Humean would not go so far; reason is the slave of passion, but the slave can still help the master. If one is unhappy that there is no sugar for the coffee, reason can usefully direct one to the grocer rather than the iron-monger for the remedy. The curiosity of depression is that it is in some way an anti-passion; it does not seem to motivate very well.

Perhaps ask yourself this; do you enjoy depression? — TimeLine

There is something important here, but to put it this way does not make it easy to get at. Perhaps one could put it more open-endedly, that there may be a function, that depression 'works' in some way as a response to the world. Another question that I like better is, "what are you depressing?" It might be sometimes, perhaps not always, that depression is a way of coping with other feelings that cannot be resolved and cannot be tolerated either - shame, guilt, rage, or some such. Thus one does not exactly enjoy depression, but it could be better than the feelings one would have if one was not depressed.

Actually, that's a hallmark of this problem; there are those who have never experienced depression. Those people, in fact, don't know what the experience is like, and can therefore add no meaningful thoughts into the discussion. — Noble Dust

This is a very radical position; one does not normally require that a doctor suffers from every complaint he treats, let alone a philosophical enquirer. But there is certainly some validity, to the extent at least that those who pontificate without either experience or listening will probably miss the mark.

Let me give it a shot. It's like the feeling of being outside of the world, in a glass box, observing "real people" live "real life", while I sit outside, floating in space, observing life and imagining what it would be like if I was "inside"; living real life. It's like I'm a scientist in an observatory, observing far-off life forms enact a theoretical world that I (theoretically) think I want to be a part of. — Noble Dust

This is a very clear characterisation that immediately suggests to me a way of understanding depression in terms of an active response to an intolerable and inescapable situation. One creates a dissociated identity as a refuge to preserve oneself from an overwhelming world. 'I' take refuge in the safety of an inner world that cannot be touched by the outer world, only to discover that I have become isolated and cannot in turn touch the world. And from there, one can see at once that there is no help for this dissociated self, either from itself or from the other in the outer world, and the only solution is for it to die.

Fortunately, this psychological death can be accomplished without physical death; indeed physical death does not do it at all. The inner self cannot by any means reach the outer world, but the inner self can end, and then one finds one is already in and part of the outer world. This is a terrifying prospect, to become, as one once was, completely vulnerable to the world, and this terror is what makes it seem impossible.

Depression is nothing more than lack of self-esteem and identity. The depressed doesn't believe in themselves, they don't believe they have a destiny, they have no faith - nor do they work at creating it.


This is Jacques Fresco. One of my personal heros. He just died about 10 days ago. At 101 years old. How did he make it to that age? Because he worked. And worked. And used his mind and body, and didn't let them go to waste.

What causes depression? Expectations that you deserve X or Y to be given to you. Leftism and communism - which disempowers people and makes them rely on the State, or some outside agency for worldly salvation. Also overpowering people/parents who give the child the idea that they can't make it on their own. Also some of society's standards of conduct which make people feel guilty if they don't meet them. Buddhism is right on this point - you have to work out your own salvation (at least with regards to worldly, non-spiritual salvation).

God gave you intelligence. Use it. It's not there to fust in you unused. So make use of it. Push yourself.

Go for a run. Do that right now. Stop complaining and other shit. And when you feel you're wheezing, short of breath, wanna give up, can't handle this anymore, etc. etc. ignore the feeling and push yourself onwards. One more step. And another. And another. Depression is overcome when you stop letting it control your behaviour.

Read this book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho-Cybernetics

Act on it.

And remember the story of Job. Who the hell are you to complain and ask why you're suffering, etc.? God rules the Universe as he pleases, we are nothing but straw dogs. That's where philosophy must end. God told Job no point arguing with me. Who are you to question my decisions? I am the Lord your God, and if I decide to let you suffer, then you will suffer. Your duty is to play your role, and do your best with what you're given. That's it.

1 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom
or gives the rooster understanding?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?
13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”
40 The Lord said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:

4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
41 “Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.” — Book of Job 38-41