They are unusual from an evolutionary perspective since they appear to present false information which could endanger the animal itself. All I can think is that perhaps before we were saturated with culture, and our minds were more limited, they were useful predictive devices. — JupiterJess

I agree with you - and - I think they still are "predictive devices".

I actually enjoy a lot of my dreams more than real life and the more I write them down the more real they appear when I sleep. I hope to gain greater control over them at some point. — JupiterJess

You should try lucid dreaming techniques.

I meant they would have had greater evolutionary value than their current forum. The reason I say this is because dreams present adverse information that overtime could be confused as being something that happened. Perhaps they are evidence that evolution selects for what creates fitness rather than what is true but that seems to fit in with the evolutionary argument against naturalism. This fact about dreams is something I've wanted to discuss for some time. They are very odd in their current form.

I've tried Lucid dreaming techniques and they worked for a time. Eventually the prompts become ineffective. It's weirdly exhausting so I keep putting it off.

I meant they would have had greater evolutionary value than their current forum. The reason I say this is because dreams present adverse information that overtime could be confused as being something that happened. — JupiterJess

Interesting – so you think the current form of our dreams is different than our caveman ancestors? Do you think our caveman ancestors believed their dreams to be real? Did our caveman ancestors evolve more rapidly because they took their dreams more seriously? If we paid more attention to our dreams would it quicken our evolution? Are we ignoring an important accelerant to our evolution?

They are very odd in thier current form. — JupiterJess

What is the current form of our dreams? What did it used to be for our caveman ancestors? What is odd about our dreams today? I think many a modern man tends to avoid paying attention to their dreams. There is a lot of evidence to that effect in this thread. Are people afraid of what they dream? What are the consequences for people who ignore their dreams? What are the benefits for people who follow their dreams?

I've tried Lucid dreaming techniques and they worked for a time. Eventually the prompts become ineffective. It's weirdly exhausting so I keep putting it off. — JupiterJess

I too grew tired of lucid dreaming – it is very exhausting. What are the benefits of lucid dreaming? Is there a downside?

“To die, to sleep – to sleep, perchance to dream – ay, there’s the rub, for in this sleep of death what dreams may come…” (Hamlet)

This is said by Hamlet to himself when he thinks he is alone. He is asking himself if it is better to give up and die rather than facing his troubles but he is frightened that he will dream when he is dead and never get any peace from his earthly troubles. The speech starts with the even more famous “To be or not to be…” which is the ‘should I live or die?’ part.

(Oxford Learning)

Interesting – so you think the current form of our dreams is different than our caveman ancestors? Do you think our caveman ancestors believed their dreams to be real? — woodart

Not cave folk, I'm thinking older than that.
What I mean is that some of the information would obviously be adverse. Let's say one dream has a predator killed and a few days later they mix up the dream and believe the predator is dead only for it to later kill them. This is what I mean when I say they are odd in evolutionary terms. All I can think is that dreams were different back then (had a different function) or the truth does not matter so much because it gave a fitness (encouragement?) that was beyond fact.

Yes, people can act on dreams now because we are all have an intuitive understanding of semiology and can differentiate information through self reflection. I do not know if the earlier animals were able to do that.

What are the benefits of lucid dreaming? Is there a downside? — woodart

I do not know. I was interested in occult AP stuff at that time.

Not cave folk, I'm thinking older than that.
What I mean is that some of the information would obviously be adverse. Let's say one dream has a predator killed and a few days later they mix up the dream and believe the predator is dead only for it to later kill them. This is what I mean when I say they are odd in evolutionary terms. All I can think is that dreams were different back then (had a different function) or the truth does not matter so much because it gave a fitness (encouragement?) that was beyond fact.

Yes, people can act on dreams now because we are all have an intuitive understanding of semiology and can differentiate information through self reflection. I do not know if the earlier animals were able to do that. — JupiterJess

So you are thinking of our really ancient ancestors – before verbal language skills developed. Probably 200,000 years ago – I will call him protoman. I think you are on to something, but I can’t quite grasp it yet. His dreams were just image stories without a verbal narrative. Kind of like the silent movies without the reference to language. Dreams were locked into a time frame. There was no language except grunts and pointing. Protoman did not have clothes or weapons – lived in trees and under rocks for protection. Did dreams help him to evolve? Perhaps he dreamed of becoming the tiger with a warm coat for night and then shed the coat and transform back to human for daytime. The illusion of change gave rise to the motivation to change – become more. Protoman looked to his dreams and found “encouragement” to be more. Dreams opened the door to the room of imagination – fantasy – horror – death – delight.

I think dreams are key to our evolution – vision of what we will become. Dreams give us a different picture. The absurdity is important because it slaps us in the face. If dreams are just a replay of what happens during the day – what is the point? We need to be kindled. Dreams tell us we are both idiots and geniuses. Don’t we need that? Dreams are the wellspring of possibility. We need a story of what is over the horizon - so that we go over the horizon and find out what is there. Protoman left Africa 75,000 years ago – in search of something – we are starting on our quest off the planet – in search of what? We need to evolve as a species – and we need dreams in order to do it. Perhaps that is why other animals don’t evolve very much – because they don’t dream enough. Dreams that drive us crazy also motivate us to do radical things. Not all radical things are worthwhile; however, if one out of a thousand is beneficial to the species – the experimentation is important.

What are the benefits of lucid dreaming? Is there a downside?
— woodart

I do not know. I was interested in occult AP stuff at that time. — JupiterJess

I think lucid dreaming puts us more in the driving seat for our own evolution. It is hard to do, but I think worthwhile – I will redouble my efforts and start again.

They are unusual from an evolutionary perspective since they appear to present false information which could endanger the animal itself. — JupiterJess

There are also physical dangers when we don't get enough sleep. My view is fairly simple: dreams help the body to stay asleep and to rest. We need sleep and dreams are the body's way to help achieve this. Sometimes actual sounds and other sensory information from the environment can be incorporated into our dreams, so we can keep on sleeping. I don't consider the "meaning" of dreams to be very significant.

I don't consider the "meaning" of dreams to be very significant. — Luke

Dreams give us an alternative reality. Sometimes the alternative is really absurd – seemingly nonsense. However, there can be great value in the absurd – nonsense – abstraction. The value is not necessarily the nonsense, but the jolt to our thinking that the absurd gives us. To question reality is a good thing. I am not saying we should accept the absurd; but to take the information as grist for the mill. If I have a dream in which I kill a loved one with a machete; I should not wake and do it. However, I should examine why I would ever think that thought. Having that kind of dream should tell me something about my relationship with that loved one. Perhaps I also hate them – I should ask myself why. So my point is that this machete dream has value – value for good. I should learn from my dreams.

Absurd dreams don’t necessarily have to be emotional or violent – they can absurd solutions to problems or conditions. I can have a dream in which my vehicle runs out of fuel and I have no access to a gas station. In my dream I put grass in the fuel tank and keep on driving. Absurd, yes – but perhaps I am telling myself there is an alternative to gasoline. Perhaps this is the spark to create a vehicle that uses biofuel. Dreams take us out of reality for a reason – to expand our reality – to see over the horizon – to envision a new horizon. This is an important function.

Dreams take us out of reality for a reason – to expand our reality – to see over the horizon – to envision a new horizon. This is an important function. — woodart

I don't deny that the content of our dreams might sometimes reflect our fears or desires or whatever, but I don't consider this to be the main purpose of dreams. Personally, I find that I have stranger and more memorable dreams the more tired I am, which supports my view that the main purpose of our dreams is to keep us asleep. I don't believe that the main purpose of our dreams is to "tell us something," to "give us an alternative reality," to "jolt our thinking," to "expand our reality," or to help us find solutions to problems. Some of these may occasionally be a fortunate byproduct of some dreams, but it strikes me as too 'new age-y' or mystical or unscientific to consider this as their main function.

I don't believe that the main purpose of our dreams is to "tell us something," to "give us an alternative reality," to "jolt our thinking," to "expand our reality," or to help us find solutions to problems. Some of these may occasionally be a fortunate byproduct of some dreams, but it strikes me as too 'new age-y' or mystical or unscientific to consider this as their main function. — Luke

Can we agree that dreams tell us stories? If so, what is the purpose of these stories? Are some of these stories significant? I think so – do a google search about “discoveries made in dreams”. The results are astounding. Dreaming is not the only methodology we use for problem solving, but it certainly is an arrow in our quiver. We all do it – and – I agree it may help us to sleep better. Dreaming is a large part of our lives – it is not a waste of time - unless you ignore them – which is each individual's prerogative. Dreams have solved big problems; but for most of us – we deal in little problems. Dreams solve every day little problems – this is very significant.

What is a dream? Is it a story we tell ourselves while we are asleep? — woodart

I think so. An event that you dream of has the disjoint syntax of memories or stories told in our language, it appears in parts or fragments, and unlike a veridical perception a dream is about something that is elsewhere in time and space.