You are right.

OK.

God's existence needs a belief. Someone who believes in his existence. This state of mind is based on faith. And faith is a sacred/religious concept. Then, God necessarily depends on all of these characteristics to exist himself. — javi2541997

Some theists hold that theism is a common sense default state or what have you, and that not believing in God is based on a confusion, like not believing in gravity just because you can't see it, even though its influence is apparent to everyone.

Religion is a caste system.

Some theists hold that theism is a common sense default state ... — Yohan

"Some theists" also hold it is "common sense" that the Earth is" flat, only 6,000 years old & the center of crearion". :mask:

Some theists hold that theism is a common sense default state or what have you, and that not believing in God is based on a confusion, like not believing in gravity just because you can't see it, even though its influence is apparent to everyone. — Yohan

I understand those theists doctrines. But while gravity is indeed a physical fact that affects everyone because it explains why our bodies are attracted to the centre of the earth and has been proven by many theories of physics, God still depends on someone's faith. It doesn't matter if you do not "see" gravity because it will affect you physically.
Gravity was always been there and later on, we the humans "discovered" it through researchers because these, precisely, wanted to go further than "God's mercy."

Whatever is real does not require "faith".

@javi2541997 @Yohan
Could it be said that the common sense default position is to be believe in moral cause and effect,AKA Karma?
Because God and Karma are the same concept from a different angle.

I understand those theists doctrines. But while gravity is indeed a physical fact that affects everyone because it explains why our bodies are attracted to the centre of the earth and has been proven by many theories of physics, God still depends on someone's faith. It doesn't matter if you do not "see" gravity because it will affect you physically.
Gravity was always been there and later on, we the humans "discovered" it through researchers because these, precisely, wanted to go further than "God's mercy." — javi2541997

This is two different categories of knowing. Empirical investigation cannot be used to prove or disprove first principles. You can't for example examine an axiom under a microscope.

javi2541997 Yohan
Could it be said that the common sense default position is to be believe in moral cause and effect,AKA Karma?
Because God and Karma are the same concept from a different angle. — Adamski

Not sure I see how Karma and God is the same concept from a different angle. Objective morality I would see as some aspect of an objective God.

@Yohan
Karma is the belief that good and bad is always rewarded and punished.
This is basically what theism is from another angle.
You can't seperate morality from God or karma in theist circles.

Some theists hold that theism is a common sense default state ... — Yohan"Some theists" also hold it is "common sense" that the Earth is" flat, only 6,000 years old & the center of crearion". :mask: — 180 Proof

Sure, it doesn't matter what they hold to be common sense. But some claim their belief in God is not based fundamentally on faith. I don't know how to test that claim.

Whatever is real does not require "faith". — 180 Proof

Maybe gnosis or belief of/in God doesn't quire faith? I do not know. But nothing about the theory or intuition of God sounds to me like it would by definition require or be at its root dependent upon faith. It doesn't really matter if most believers say their belief is based in faith.

Insofar as "faith" is, in practice, suspension of disbelief, objects of "faith" are merely fictions. (Re: scriptural contents of religions)

Faith means Trust.
Just like some people trust science and the media and Bill clinton...

Karma is the belief that good and bad is always rewarded and punished.
This is basically what theism is from another angle.
You can't seperate morality from God or karma in theist circles. — Adamski

Maybe karma can exist without a God, and God can exist without being personally involved with matters of justice?

The thing is nobody in here as given a bare minimum definition of what a God must be. I think for me I just think of some ultimate being. I don't know what all that entails.

↪Yohan Insofar as "faith" is, in practice, suspension of disbelief, objects of "faith" are merely fictions. (Re: scriptural contents of religions) — 180 Proof

Suspension of disbelief does not entail that what is accepted during that suspension is merely fictitious. Rather, what has been accepted simply has not been critically examined to determine its truth value, leaving the possibilities open.

Edit: However, I tend to think that ALL belief is unjustified. Until I actually KNOW FOR CERTAIN, how can my belief be justified? I even go so far as to say belief is the enemy of knowledge.

Faith means Trust.
Just like some people trust science and the media and Bill clinton... — Adamski

Perhaps Faith is extreme or perfected Trust

@Yohan
Of course it depends on one's concept of God.
Religions do not seperate God from morality or vice versa

With Karma how would you say it got enforced?
And would an ultimate being not get involved to rectify injustice?

Me myself,I'm a Sufi mystic so God is felt in the heart,so all these abstract definitions and a lot of theology is meaningless to me.

@Yohan
"Perhaps Faith is extreme or perfected Trust"
That's a great quote. No perhaps about it!
That's how I see my faith.

So what justifies the epistemic standard of justification? (re: verificationism)

I find it amazing that people want to go the epistemic justification route,when the infinite regress occurs with JTB!
Plato already told you their is intuitive direct knowledge.
Axiomatic and Trustworthy.

Common sense abdicated in favour of unreasonable doubt!

"Perhaps Faith is extreme or perfected Trust"
That's a great quote. No perhaps about it!
That's how I see my faith. — Adamski

And assuming you are like me, the INTUITION comes first, of something higher than the mundane world, senses and logic. And as this INTUITION is followed more and more, against the naysaying of our own doubts(which could be triggered by others) our Faith increases, until one day we live entirely by a higher sense of order without reliance on logic or the senses (or at least intuition becomes the dominant compass). And the INTUITION guides us eventually to its source, leading to "gnosis" (don't know the Sufi term) The pure intuitive realization of the root principle or pattern that guides all things?

What is intuition though, I don't know. Maybe gnosis is required to know! "root principle" sounds a bit dry too, probably not the best term. I sound like a wannabe know it all.

↪Yohan So what justifies the epistemic standard of justification? (re: verificationism) — 180 Proof

I'm tired to look up these terms.
I'll take a crack at it tomorrow, I think.

@Yohan
There is lot to be said for your post on Intuition and Gnosis. Said like a true mystic!
My one additional but very important point is this.
Intuition is the natural normal innate born condition.
One must have a kind of "trauma" or fear to supress it.
And one can return to innate gnosis by various processes,by platos or other mystical paths,or even through sport.

Faith means Trust. — Adamski

Some people think that. Faith is the excuse they give for believing in something when they have no good reasons. If you have good reasons to believe something, you give those reasons. If you have nothing, you can say it's down to faith. And there's nothing you can't justify using faith - I remember well some devote Christian South Africans telling me that apartheid was god's will and that they had this on faith. No reason necessary.

Could it be said that the common sense default position is to be believe in moral cause and effect,AKA Karma?
Because God and Karma are the same concept from a different angle. — Adamski

No... common sense is Aristotelian logic.

Whatever is real does not require "faith". — 180 Proof

:100: :fire:

Religion is really old.

Religious faith (noun, concept), traditional or doctrinal belief in the unbelievable in order to defend the indefensible and excuse (rationalizes) inexcusable conduct by "true believers". :eyes: :pray:

Religion is really old. — Tate

Göbekli Tepe is about 12,000 years old ..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Religion is really old. — Tate

So is prostitution. :cool:

@javi2541997
You know people had common sense before Aristotle right?
And yes,in addition to karma ( cause and effect!) being common sense so is Identity and contradiction,ish.

Hume may have doubted cause and effect but he still lived it practically.

What I pretended to show you is the fact that "common sense" is logic not Karma or God. When Aristotle defined these philosophy theories, he intended to go further than mythology.

You know people had believed in different dieties before the Biblie or the Quran right? :eyes: