I had that response from reading the OP, which was quite on with the lines how typically these debates go.Maybe if you'd read the thread properly, you'd see the philosophical element here. The intersection between biology/psychology/society and the primacy of identity over behaviour, preference etc. But if you're not interested, that's OK too. — Baden
If this person's existence makes any of you angry — Baden
You lost the battle for social reality. — Baden
He created the Rocky Horror Picture Show. — Tate
this person's existence makes any of you angry, I suggest the problem is with you, not him. And you can't stop him existing or being recognized as existing. You lost the battle for social reality. That part is over. — Baden
It's not like I recognized that I am English and live in England and then concluded that I therefore must already be a supporter of the English football team. — Michael
think we can expect edge cases that aren't convincing. So far I've only met trans people who were clearly embracing stereotypical traits of the of their new gender. The trans man was growing facial hair. The trans women, which I saw more often, were wearing dresses and carrying purses. — Pie
The point being we seem to have two strains of not entirely consistent progressive liberal thoughts going on here: (1) gender roles and gender expression should not be designated by biological sex, and (2) transsexuals should be able to express themselves by the gender roles traditionally assigned to them by their biological sex. — Hanover
I think the general sentiment of the opposition isn't anger or a desire for physical interference, but it's ridicule and an eye roll. — Hanover
We are and are not what we present. Free artists of ourselves, self-marketing products, we long also to have fate and not just choice, to be something (really a man, really a woman). — Pie
A classic liberal perspective demands egalitarianism, which should result in a denial of gender roles and distinctions. Under an established egalitarian society, we should expect men and women's clothing to move toward androgeny, with equal likelihood of skirts, heels, and makeup for everyone — Hanover
The point being we seem to have two strains of not entirely consistent progressive liberal thoughts going on here: (1) gender roles and gender expression should not be designated by biological sex, and (2) transsexuals should be able to express themselves by the gender roles traditionally assigned to them by their biological sex. — Hanover
And when archeologists dig up his bones and see the male skeleton, what then? — NOS4A2
But by the same token I’m going to call people with testes “men”. — NOS4A2
The point being we seem to have two strains of not entirely consistent progressive liberal thoughts going on here: (1) gender roles and gender expression should not be designated by biological sex, and (2) transsexuals should be able to express themselves by the gender roles traditionally assigned to them by their biological sex.
The point being we seem to have two strains of not entirely consistent progressive liberal thoughts going on here: (1) gender roles and gender expression should not be designated by biological sex, and (2) transsexuals should be able to express themselves by the gender roles traditionally assigned to them by their biological sex. — Hanover
There is an effort to distinguish between gender and sex while at the same time equivocating between them. — NOS4A2
The key, I think, is to abandon the word “gender” in such discussions. If we think along the lines of “sex” there is little room to hide behind these equivocations. — NOS4A2
The point being we seem to have two strains of not entirely consistent progressive liberal thoughts going on here: (1) gender roles and gender expression should not be designated by biological sex, and (2) transsexuals should be able to express themselves by the gender roles traditionally assigned to them by their biological sex.
— Hanover
I struggle to see how it is liberal at all to be espousing shoulds and should nots about something as personal as individual identity. — Tzeentch
The fact that someone identifies as something else is not enough for me to believe that they are indeed that thing. That’s my problem. — NOS4A2
but at some point a moral line is drawn, for instance when we are treating this mental incongruity with very biological measures, like chemical or surgical castration, the results of which there is no turning back. — NOS4A2
at some point a moral line is drawn, for instance when we are treating this mental incongruity with very biological measures, like chemical or surgical castration, the results of which there is no turning back. — NOS4A2
I don’t have any answers, but it seems to me a view that affirms biology rather than amputates it leaves room for those to come to terms with themselves as they really are. — NOS4A2
It isn't even remotely believable to you that a biological man could be a woman?
I think according to your own view a sex change would just mean that a man becomes a woman or vice versa, and it sounds like you wouldn't accept that as valid.
But I have every right to have my newborn son mutilated. Or I could get a tattoo of a dick on my face. Both are permanent biological measures.
If you can provide me with some serious science that says that people who take such measures regret it by and large I might agree. You claim to be in favor of freedom; you should be in favor of someone's right to remedy such issues. Children? I don't think so. But adults? Definitely.
You would block transgender people from getting the treatments many of them want. That's definitely a preventative measure of sorts.
What would you consider to be the defining characteristics of a man? Serious question.
I never once said “all that matters is biology”. — NOS4A2
the biology is paramount. — NOS4A2
The distinction exists at the cellular level and begins at such an early stage in development that any change to it is impossible and irreversible. — NOS4A2
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