Irony and reality

introbert

Greetings! This is my first post to the forum, so bear with me.

As my username suggests I am best described by what in Jungian psychology is termed an "intuitive introvert". This type of personality, I believe, has given me the inclination to have an interest in philosophy throughout life. As such there are certain topics that really interest me which I can think about alone for long periods. One of these topics will be the subject of this post today: irony. There is much to say on this topic but I will begin with something ironical that relates to my philosophical personality. It is ironic that to be someone who has a mind that searches for meaning that the results of that search are often meaningless when related to others. This irony underlies my motive for joining this forum, as I hope that the meanings I have created in solitude will find an understanding audience here.

Following from that, I will try to keep this post to my own thoughts on the subject and not discuss much of the Greek origins of the concept or the thoughts of later philosophers. My concern with irony is a belief I hold about reality, in particular. Although, I do think irony plays a great role in social process, but I doubt I will touch on that in this post. As it relates to reality: I believe that reality is fundamentally ironic as consciousness and the world it perceives are united as one materially, but there is a deficit between the idea that consciousness produces and the world. Because of this circumstance people live in a constant state of irony, perhaps not on the surface of every single perception, but on the level of the moment by moment constant revolutions of reality unfolding against consciousness that has limited powers of expectation.

Let me examine the irony I used previously in this post: individual search for meaning ends meaninglessly with others not understanding or perhaps agreeing with one's conclusions. Does this example of irony fit the description of a deficit between the world and consciousness? Perhaps. One would expect that something they have thought that has made life for them more meaningful would also make other's lives more meaningful (and not be dismissed as nonsense). So, tell me, am I (and we all) in a fundamentally ironic state due to the dualistic (eg. mind-body) nature of reality, or is the only ironic thing that what I hold to be true and expect others to find meaningful to be summarily dismissed as nonsense?

jgill

or is the only ironic thing that what I hold to be true and expect others to find meaningful to be summarily dismissed as nonsense? — introbert

↪introbert

I'm not sure I would use the word "irony" here. You seem to ask why others don't find meaning in an activity or an idea that is meaningful for you. An answer is not easily forthcoming and requires an honest appraisal of why it holds this status for you.

Sometimes a person finds something meaningful at the origins of a social trend, and as time progresses others do as well. That fortunate set of circumstances held for me sixty years or so ago, and an activity I championed then in relative solitude now has perhaps seven or eight million participants in the USA and many more overseas. Partly it's being convinced of its value no matter what others might think and partly it's reading the tea leaves.

On the other hand, as a mathematician, the subject path I took has held wonderful meaning for me over the years - but not at all for others. Merely one of tens of thousands low ranking topics on Wikipedia. You win and you lose. That's life. :cool:

Tom Storm

↪introbert

Have you read Richard Rorty's book -Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity 1989?

From Wiki - For Rorty an ironist is someone who fulfils three conditions:

(1) She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered; (2) she realizes that arguments phrased in her present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts; (3) insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power, not herself.

In relation to your statement that reality is dualistic. I don't think anyone knows what realty is as such. It's just a word, right. Really real? At best what we have is tentative models or stories of what we like to call reality, which essentially amounts to the world of appearances as apprehended by humans and/or their instruments.

introbert

↪jgill

Yes it's one of those ironies that is ironically unironic. Just about any irony is to a "know-it-all", not to imply anyone here is, but take the irony that Pres. Reagan's bulletproof car deflected a bullet that had missed him into his lung. Ironic, yes, but not to someone with 20/20hindsight, of course that is one of the predictable and expected things that any sufficiently hard bulletproof surface will deflect a bullet! Not ironic at all!

jgill

↪introbert

I seem to have misinterpreted your OP. Sorry.

Agent Smith

Camusian irony/paradox: Why are there beings (humans) who seek meaning in a world that doesn't seem to have any? A wicked problem! I haven't actually read Camus but I hope his Sisyphus book does at the very least mention some attempts to find meaning with anlayses of how & why they ended in disappointment.

Ciceronianus

It is ironic that to be someone who has a mind that searches for meaning that the results of that search are often meaningless when related to others. — introbert

Example of irony: Yes. That's certainly ironic.

T Clark

↪introbert

Irony is one of those words that means different things to different people. It would help if you defined just what you mean by the word.

introbert

My standard for considering something ironic is pretty low. The standard dictionary definition of the opposite of what a certain set of circumstances would have you expect, especially if it is humorous or paradoxical.

T Clark

My standard for considering something ironic is pretty low. The standard dictionary definition of the opposite of what a certain set of circumstances would have you expect, especially if it is humorous or paradoxical. — introbert

As it relates to reality: I believe that reality is fundamentally ironic as consciousness and the world it perceives are united as one materially, but there is a deficit between the idea that consciousness produces and the world. — introbert

Given the definition you're using, your argument is circular. If reality is the measure of irony, how can it be ironic. It is meaninglessly self-referential like "This sentence is false."

introbert

Adept interpretation. When I say reality I take an indirect realist position. What I'm saying is irony is a proof of it, not making a circular. If direct realism was true our perceptions and thoughts (including expectations) should align perfectly with the world. However we fail to see every detail in any situation and the result are ironic surprises. I just make this point because irony is generally not connected to indirect realism but I strongly believe it is a phenomenon and proof of it.

T Clark

Adept interpretation. When I say reality I take an indirect realist position. What I'm saying is irony is a proof of it, not making a circular. If direct realism was true our perceptions and thoughts (including expectations) should align perfectly with the world. However we fail to see every detail in any situation and the result are ironic surprises. I just make this point because irony is generally not connected to indirect realism but I strongly believe it is a phenomenon and proof of it. — introbert

Irony is a property of language. Reality is what comes before language. Reality can't be ironic.

introbert

↪T Clark

I passionately disagree with the belief irony is a property of language. It certainly has been interpreted that way especially in 19th? century german philosophy, but I definitely think irony is a subjective phenomenon and not something symbolic. Literary irony is a simulacrum of irony and I believe Hegel and his ilk pushed a literary turn in irony because of his bias against it that "irony (socratic) is subjective that annihilates the objective". To use Hegel's terms, I stand my ground that irony is a phenomenon of indirect reality, subjective, that flies in the face of expectations that are established through objectivity.

Moliere

↪introbert

Well, that's unexpected. ;)

As it relates to reality: I believe that reality is fundamentally ironic as consciousness and the world it perceives are united as one materially, but there is a deficit between the idea that consciousness produces and the world. Because of this circumstance people live in a constant state of irony, perhaps not on the surface of every single perception, but on the level of the moment by moment constant revolutions of reality unfolding against consciousness that has limited powers of expectation. — introbert

I think I'd say that reality is fundamentally absurd, but for different reasons. Even so, I think I feel what you're saying here in an opaque way.

The major addendum I'd add is "some" -- so "some people live in a constant state of irony"

But only because of the feelings that the word "irony" evokes. There's a sense in which everyday, even when it goes according to plan, is totally unexpected. So I think I'd agree with that. But I think there's also being-in-the-world and everydayness -- habit and repetition.

introbert

↪Moliere

I think opaque is an apt word to use. Irony is the state of human consciousness for the very reason that what is expected is not the ironic thing. But we must wallow in opaque ironies that our minds dont comprehend. They are endless and I am already exhausted before I make the following list: the technologies we count on for our survival ultimately are destroying us, food we eat to keep us healthy and alive makes us fat and slowly kills us, you put on a shoe to protect your feet from the stones on the ground, but it traps a stone under your foot as you walk. The agony! I can't go on.

Moliere

↪introbert

But we must, yes?

I don't believe in universal tonics.

Some of what you list have political solutions, but those are anxiety producing because we, as individuals, don't have control over politics -- given that political acts are collective, we very literally have no control over them.

But, in order to address those, we must be able to "go on" -- not in listing the problems of course, but in addressing them or confronting them, to the degree we are able. We must feel better -- or, at least, feel better about the agony we're feeling. Or we won't go on at all.

We don't have to wallow in them -- we can instead reflect upon translucent thoughts our minds do comprehend. Which, on the whole, tends to make the opaque ones easier for me. Wallowing, though at times I need that indulgence, has a way of getting away with itself -- it is its own motivational feedback loop.

But, as I said, I don't believe in universal tonics. I'm only sharing what I think.

introbert

There would be no irony if we could see every possible detail and outcome of everything and anything at any time. This inability to expect is basically due to not having a full and accurate picture of the world, we can't see what is masked, or behind the illusions we create, we have self-deceptions. When an expectation is too subjective some objective fact opposes our expectations, or too objective then a subjective interpretation reveals an irony that might be humorous, but also could be tragic.

↪Moliere

T Clark

I passionately disagree with the belief irony is a property of language. It certainly has been interpreted that way especially in 19th? century german philosophy, but I definitely think irony is a subjective phenomenon and not something symbolic. Literary irony is a simulacrum of irony and I believe Hegel and his ilk pushed a literary turn in irony because of his bias against it that "irony (socratic) is subjective that annihilates the objective". To use Hegel's terms, I stand my ground that irony is a phenomenon of indirect reality, subjective, that flies in the face of expectations that are established through objectivity. — introbert

It all comes back to this, from the OP:

I believe that reality is fundamentally ironic as consciousness and the world it perceives are united as one materially, — introbert

Are you saying there was no reality until there was consciousness? That's an argument I've made before in a somewhat different context.

introbert

↪T Clark

I suppose I do agree with that statement, as reality is not one or the other of the world or the mind. The extreme of reality being the mind is solipsism and i guess the extreme of reality being the world is something completely egoless, unlike solipsism, where consciousness is just the world experiencing itself. In solipsism ones mind is the originator of reality which is extreme indirect realism, so I suppose the world experiencing itself through a biological organism that merely has an ego for self-preservation would possibly be a direct realist belief as the worlds experience of itself is as the world is, for the somewhat circular reason that it is the world itself. But both of those musings are nonsense as I hold that reality is only moderately indirect realist: there is a world and we live in it but we are separate from it and require advanced nervous system to comprehend it, but alas, it is not good enough so we exist in an absurd-ironic state in a sufficiently detached reality to claim, as I have, that we are immersed in an ironic subjective phenomenon.

T Clark

But both of those musings are nonsense as I hold that reality is only moderately indirect realist: there is a world and we live in it but we are separate from it and require advanced nervous system to comprehend it, but alas, it is not good enough so we exist in an absurd-ironic state in a sufficiently detached reality to claim, as I have, that we are immersed in an ironic subjective phenomenon. — introbert

It's possible you and I are not that far apart in our understanding.

Irony and reality

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