Sanna Marin forgot that she was the PM and people who've been hauling her over the coals forget that she's a 36 year old woman. :smile:

who've been hauling her over the coals forget that she's a 36 year old woman — Agent Smith

Are you insinuating she is still young to act as a drunk teenager? Despite the important fact that she is the PM I don't see her as "little girl"

Are you insinuating she is still young to act as a drunk teenager? Despite the important fact that she is the PM I don't see her as "little girl" — javi2541997

What does the average 36 year old (Finnish) woman do after sunset?

hauling her over the coals — Agent Smith

That is all relative in the light of her position as someone else has allready mentioned. She tread dangerously considering who and what she is and which she should have taken into account before doing so. If she didnt she must have failed to overview the job description. Watching it all from afar makes for a shallow observation, up close it all must have seemed rather amateurish.

What does the average 36 year old (Finnish) woman do after sunset? — Agent Smith

Stay at home... I guess.

Stay at home... I guess — javi2541997

We'll need to dig up stats on what 36 yr old (Finnish) women do.

That is all relative in the light of her position as someone else has allready mentioned. She tread dangerously considering who and what she is and which she should have taken into account before doing so. If she didnt she must have failed to overview the job description. Watching it all from afar makes for a shallow observation, up close it all must have seemed rather amateurish. — Seeker

You have a point but one has to consider the undeniable fact that Sanna Marin is a human and will want to do what humans want to do at that age.

We'll need to dig up stats on what 36 yr old (Finnish) women do. — Agent Smith

I think @ssu can help us in this topic. Anyway, this is what I found in a quick search in Google: WHAT DO PEOPLE IN FINLAND DO IN THEIR FREE TIME?

These are the statistics of what adult Finnish people do in free time:

• Reading books 56%
• Walking 49%
• Exercising in nature 48%
• Travelling abroad 36%
• Solving crosswords/sudoku 32%
• Travelling within Finland 31%
• Spending time at summer cottages 28%
• Self-access learning 27%
• Cooking as a hobby 25%
• Gardening 24%

That's not really relevant. I'm sure the average woman doesn't play chess either. Obviously chess playing women are devilish heathens.

These are the statistics of what adult Finnish people do in free time:

Reading books 56%
Walking 49%
Exercising in nature 48%
Travelling abroad 36%
Solving crosswords/sudoku 32%
Travelling within Finland 31%
Spending time at summer cottages 28%
Self-access learning 27%
Cooking as a hobby 25%
Gardening 24% — javi2541997

You left out the next entry:

Dirty dancing with the Prime Minister 23%

Interesting percentages. I should've framed the question differently and perhaps the study is malapropos in re the issue at hand. I'll say no more.

That's not really relevant. I'm sure the average woman doesn't play chess either. Obviously chess playing women are devilish heathens. — Benkei

I see. Danke for the clarification.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. — Benjamin Disraeli?

Pardon the oversight monsieur.

Dirty dancing with the Prime Minister 23% — Hanover

They covered it up :lol: probably the percentage is even higher :eyes:

They covered it up :lol: probably the percentage is even higher — javi2541997

:lol:

The assumption by many seems to be 'politics is sober and serious, please don't have a life too.'
— Tom Storm

I wonder who else is covered under this assumption, doctors, lawyers, Sunday school teachers? — Fooloso4

Politics _should_ be sober and serious. Similar applies to many other professions.

It's frightening the way people are willing to lower their standards and to consider various professions as "just another job".

Did you know?

Dance is therapeutic (as per Swiss psychologist Carl Jung). So, people, do you or do you not want a PM who's healthy in mind and body?

I support the idea that statesmen and leaders shouldn't behave like how she behaved in that party. She has a responsibility to her entire nation and a role model to the public. — L'éléphant

No. It is not about double standard. She is the PM and public representative of a nation. She has the aim to act in the most honorable and rectitude way possible. We are living in a difficult social context and we expect from a statesman to be, at least, professional. Right?
It is quite contradictory, isn't it? Probably she has the average discourse of how to be an exemplary citizen and look at her dancing and acting like an immature teenager. — javi2541997

Agreed.

The actual difficulty has to do with making sense of democracy and the standards of morality for democratically elected officials.

A person in a position of power isn't an ordinary person anymore, because they have that power.

But at the same time, since they have been elected from and by the people with whom they are at least nominally equal, they are still ordinary in one sense.

I still think people in positions of power should be beyond the need for frivolous fun. It's not even about "being responsible"; it's about being so capable, so smart, so superior to the masses that one doesn't need the cheap emotional outlets that the masses do.

But now we are here in the phase where she apologizes with nearly breaking up in tears ... — ssu

Why did she do that?

If partying and drinking are so great and make her so capable of ruling her people, then why apologize for partying and drinking??

If she were to stand by her partying, the whole thing wouldn't be suspect at all. But if she's making it clear that even she herself doesn't believe in what she's doing, then why should we believe in her, how can we believe in her??

Why didn't she say something like, "Yes, I'm a Prime Minister. Yes, I party. Yay!" ? And perhaps throw a "Deal with it!" in the mix.
It's the absence of her approving of her partying that is conspicuous and a reason for doubting her.

If she wants to be a politician of a new era, then she should behave like one consistently and play by the new rules, not the old ones.

I still think people in positions of power should be beyond the need for frivolous fun. It's not even about "being responsible"; it's about being so capable, so smart, so superior to the masses that one doesn't need the cheap emotional outlets that the masses do. — baker

Completely agreed :up:

This gave rise to a proverb: "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion"
I still maintain my original thoughts about this issue. I think we the citizens should expect more from a PM, even when we are living a difficult time in this period of war crisis and gas prices. You cannot have most of the people wondering what would happen in winter while she is partying as a teenager.
When I saw her dancing like that I thought she was not responsible enough to be a public representative. But this opinion leads me to be called sexist. Because the people who defend her maintain the idea that she is young and she is free to have fun because we are living in a “modern era”

Why did she do that?

If partying and drinking are so great and make her so capable of ruling her people, then why apologize for partying and drinking?? — baker

As an old saying goes, everything is fine "up to a point". Perhaps it's that there are many videos.

Actually, she didn't apologize, but made a tearful statement (with translation in English.)

Why didn't she say something like, "Yes, I'm a Prime Minister. Yes, I party. Yay!" ? And perhaps throw a "Deal with it!" in the mix. — baker

Because she had done that already. Far before the last round of partying, when the first criticisms of her partying emerged. Then she had that defiant response.

Then she had sent to her critics sent an instagram (along with friend MP in the background dubbed "party-Ilmari") below:



It basically says "boomers, just chill out". It's part of lyrics from a Finnish pop song and refers to the older generation we know so well.

If she wants to be a politician of a new era, then she should behave like one consistently and play by the new rules, not the old ones. — baker

I think she is just has learnt that the old rules apply and are useful.

If partying and drinking are so great and make her so capable of ruling her people, then why apologize for partying and drinking??

If she were to stand by her partying, the whole thing wouldn't be suspect at all. But if she's making it clear that even she herself doesn't believe in what she's doing, then why should we believe in her, how can we believe in her?? — baker

You make for good arguments but I guess in the end it is all about the realisation of being in politics, about seeing the error of her ways in conventional ways, not feeling morally compromised neccesarily but seeing her credibility diminished in the face of the public eye.

I think she is just has learnt that the old rules apply and are useful. — ssu

I gather most of us confuse the higher moral expectations of Scandinavians with our own looser standards? If Sanna Marin is ousted as PM would you think that she will come back and be elected by popular vote as President a year from now?

I don't think that she's going to be ousted.

Basically the opposition understands that attacking Marin now can end up damaging them and they can just wait for the oncoming recession, the high inflation and the energy crisis simply to take it's toll on the leftist/centrist administration. This "partygate" is still this kind of non-important issue when there are far bigger political problems around.

So I think she has avoided already this scandal. American politics concentrates far more in these kind of issues especially during elections. Finnish political discourse is still "boring" and concentrates on politicy issues.

Actually, she has said that she's not going to run for the Presidency. Which of course can change. (Like just before Putin's 24th Feb invasion she didn't see NATO membership happening)

After being put into the PM position (when the previous Social Democrat PM had to resign after his scandal) like Liz Truss and then surviving COVID pandemic and joining NATO and now being the most famous Finnish politician, I think it's likely that she might become the Finnish President someday.

(If the wild sex party tapes don't surface, that is! :wink: )

Because the people who defend her maintain the idea that she is young and she is free to have fun because we are living in a “modern era” — javi2541997

We're living in an era of secular tyranny.

We're living in an era of secular tyranny. — baker

There always been tyranny from the rulers or statemen. Nevertheless, I still maintain my opinion that a public representative should behave according to righteousness. I guess this issue is not based on her parties but the fact she is the PM. If she would be a random person nobody would care at all.

What is a secular tyranny?

There always been tyranny from the rulers or statemen. Nevertheless, I still maintain my opinion that a public representative should behave according to righteousness. I guess this issue is not based on her parties but the fact she is the PM. If she would be a random person nobody would care at all. — javi2541997

But where do you arrive at the rule that not partying is righteous?

There's this ongoing view in this thread that says something like this "Come on, we all know that her behavior was unbecoming and ridiculous, but how much leeway are we going to give her just because she's a young woman"? The problem is I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that what she did was unbecoming. Whatever part of your moral conscience that is being shocked, just isn't happening to me. All I see is a woman dancing and singing with her friends. How is what she did bad in any way?

We are living in a very complex scenario. Ukraine is at war, the prices are raising, unemployment increasing, and the world is getting divided as in the cold war. I guess (yes, I know I sound boring) what we should expect from our politicians is at least some righteousness. A Prime Minister is not a regular or ordinary citizen. She literally represents Finland and promotes some laws which are voted in the Parliament. Thus, she has a lot of power. Then, she has a lot of responsibility on their shoulders.
It is not fair or correct to party as a teenager instead of working hard 24/7. If you think this is "extreme" you are not able to be a politician with power because it seems not everybody is capable to be such an important person.

Imagine this scenario with Joe Biden or Scholz in Germany. It would be disgusting as hell... Everybody suffering from the gas and oil prices crisis and those politicians having fun... It is not correct to me.

Everybody suffering from the gas and oil prices crisis and those politicians having fun... It is not correct to me. — javi2541997

Yeah, some feel that way. Yet I think a more pressing issue is that this administration is spending like crazy, trying to stimulate things when there is rampant inflation going on. Not a good policy I say. The issue is that when you don't have the best team possible to lead.

The ugly fact is that Sanna, as other Finnish female party leaders were put to the position because of their looks: they were somewhat young good looking women. It seems that there was a collective decision of "Let's have young good looking women!". Not porn stars like Cicciolina, which basically was an Italian protest vote. Yet that's the only reason why Finnish politicians suddenly are so popular. Just look at the party leaders before them:

Sanna Marin, current Social Democrat Party leader and prime minister:


Social Democrat party leader and former prime minister before Sanna Marin:


Green Party leader, current minister:


Green Party leader before her:


Centrist Party leader, finance minister (at start of Marin administration, replaced by another woman):


Centrist Party leader before, prior prime minister:


Leftist Alliance party leader, current minister:


Leftist Alliance party leader before the current leader:


Can anybody notice a trend here from the pictures? No?

Yet I think a more pressing issue is that this administration is spending like crazy, trying to stimulate things when there is rampant inflation going on — ssu

Well, yes here is another big problem. Apart from being immature it turns out that she is not even a good representative. Everything is connected with this debate. If she had any sense of basic responsibility she would be a better PM.
But the footage shows what she really is: incompatible for her charge.
"Dancing" and "partying" while the rampant inflation goes on :yikes:
What triggers me the most is the fact that these politicians do not resign. They still remain in the power looking like if nothing happened at all.

Can anybody notice a trend here from the pictures? — ssu

You are right! There is clearly a trend in selecting beautiful women.

For me the biggest problem is that Marin's taste in music seems banal and her partying appears somewhat hygienic. I wish she were really going to town with some old style blues and and swigging from good bottle of rye whiskey in a cool looking bar. I wish leaders would let their party animal loose more often - it's not hard to be a fully integrated human being, with a sense of fun, along with a sense of duty. If this seems like an irresolvable contradiction to voters, they are to be pitied.

In terms of beauty - I would think that goes against candidates too. A lot of people resent attractive women for obvious reasons, and may even assume they are unable to do a good job because they are good looking. My first wife was a former model and super intelligent but she copped that prejudice all the time. I suspect that is why people resent Marin's dancing - it activates this particular prejudice. Often people assume attractive women can't be leaders and are always seeking out evidence of this. Marin's dancing and having 'fun' (even if to me it looks humdrum) is 'good evidence' to the jealous naysayers, the wowsers and the bitter. Images of an attractive women having fun is like catnip for misogynists and jealous women.