No, it is not contradiction and I am fully respect your enthusiasm for trying to make this life less suffered. But I just can't see good reasons to change the issue. I think all of those are illusions of what we would dream about how the world and life should look like.
But these are just dreams... because when you wake up you realize life is painful and we are surrounded with a severe sense of uncertainty.

No, it is not contradiction and I am fully respect your enthusiasm for trying to make this life less suffered. But I just can't see good reasons to change the issue. I think all of those are illusions of what we would dream about how the world and life should look like.
But these are just dreams... because when you wake up you realize life is painful and we are surrounded with a severe sense of uncertainty. — javi2541997

I know I should but I do not share your pessimism. Of course I don't recommend Panglossian/Polyannaish optimism to anyone else ... its a surefire way to get yourself killed.

its a surefire way to get yourself killed. — Agent Smith

... Aren't we all end dying anyway?

It's a fun but rather dystopian fiction. Deals with humans who cannot die but crave the experience.
So it fits somewhat into your:

My question is is there a book on (fictional even) or an actual case of someone who suicided for no apparent reason other than s/he just wanted to? — Agent Smith

From the reviews I read the story revolves around a guy who wants to murder just for the heck of it — Agent Smith

There is a line from a Johnny Cash song 'Folsom Prison Blues,' "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.'


Is the story you are referring to not part of Dostoevsky's 'The Brothers Karamazov?'
I know Jordan Peterson regularly discusses the content of this book and hails it as his favourite and I know Christopher Hitchens also rated it very highly but not for the same reasons as Peterson. I have never read it but I seem to recall Peterson talking about a section in this book where one of the brothers commits murder merely for the sensation of doing so.

So the PSR (the principle of sufficient reason) is not entirely correct. Although I'm no psychologist, I'd say such behavior is part of play (& learn) - a method that animals, prey + predators alike, use to educate their young.

It's quite surprising that there are no documented cases of people suiciding out of, well, curiosity and nothing else.

... Aren't we all end dying anyway? — javi2541997

Aye but not willingly, si?

It's quite surprising that there are no documented cases of people suiciding out of, well, curiosity and nothing else. — Agent Smith

Many people kill themselves and give no warning and leave no note so who knows what their reasons were. It would have to be really bizarre thinking to use 'curiosity' as your reason as curiosity is usually an enquiry that has the purpose of receiving an answer, so you would have to believe in some sort of awareness after death so that you could have such curiosity satisfied? If there is nothing after death then your curiosity remains unsatisfied.

Many people kill themselves and give no warning and leave no note so who knows what their reasons were. It would have to be really bizarre thinking to use 'curiosity' as your reason as curiosity is usually an enquiry that has the purpose of receiving an answer, so you would have to believe in some sort of awareness after death so that you could have such curiosity satisfied? If there is nothing after death then your curiosity remains unsatisfied. — universeness

Alright, imagine this scenario: You get wind of a suicide in your neighborhood. The person, a Mr. X, has died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. It piques your interest, because from what you know - X is wealthy, no drug/alcohol issues, doctors report he has no chronic illnesses, X's been married for 10 years now to a loving wife and has 3 adorable children, and so on - X was the last person who you'd have thought would take his own life. X's suicide makes no sense at all. Have I not given a description, albeit sketchy, of many cases of deaths classified as suicide?

When you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is the truth. — Sherlock Holmes

Alright, imagine this scenario: You get wind of a suicide in your neighborhood. The person, a Mr. X, has died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. It piques your interest, because from what you know - X is wealthy, no drug/alcohol issues, doctors report he has no chronic illnesses, X's been married for 10 years now to a loving wife and has 3 adorable children, and so on - X was the last person who you'd have thought would take his own life. X's suicide makes no sense at all. Have I not given a description, albeit sketchy, of many cases of deaths classified as suicide? — Agent Smith

Sounds a reasonable scenario. I would suggest the following possibilities.
1. He was (unknown to his friends and family) part of a sect whose leader decided that the only way to enter the REAL world was to kill yourself after taking this little red pill. This truth will not come out for another 70 years due to the official secrets act as the guy was a well known politician and involved with MI6.

2. He was 'hypnotised' by an enemy and compelled to kill himself.

3. He did not kill himself and was in fact killed by his unfaithful wife in a plot to gain his assets and share them with her secret toyboy. (His wife did seem loving BUT......)

4. He became obsessed with the suffering he saw in life. His gentle persona could not handle it any more. He exchanged with all the anti-life people on TPF. He focussed too much on schoppin in the same places and became too weak to continue to choose life. So he self-inflicted his own death as a pointless gesture to the anti-life posit of 'the futility of life.'

5. He was always curious or impatient to find out if heaven and hell really existed. He had prayed and prayed to his god and in a dream, he received (perfectly rational in his opinion) permission from his god (no suicide exclusion clause) to come join his god now and enjoy the heavenly paradise as he had done enough in his life lived so far to qualify under well established god criteria.

6. He was really fed up that everyone called him Mr X, just cause he was bald and looked like Patrick Stewart. (Sorry Mr Smith, I couldn't resist!)

Are all these suggestions impossible or just unlikely?

I am sure Sherlock will figure it out!

Ok. My gedanken experiment failed miserably. Well, at least you got to show off your mental prowess! I'm impressed.

:blush:

Does the 'something really cool could happen and you will miss it,' not do anything for you?
I am always amazed by some of the cases of people I have read about who live with disabilities that would probably overwhelm me yet they still fight so hard for every moment of life.
What do you think of a life such as Helen Keller's? — universeness

I think Helen Keller is an awesome example of a courageous human.

I have always believed our elders are valuable people, but when we can not take care of ourselves and be useful perhaps it is our duty to leave life to the young? Do you realize an increasing number of homeless people are elderly people and they are at a higher risk of dying on the streets than the young? For sure I would rather be dead than be one of them and the way rents are going up, I could be one of them.

I can not imagine anything really cool happening that I would want to stay around for. I am full of life and don't need anymore. I was living to write a book about education and democracy, and now my brain just will not handle that. That is the last straw. I cared for my grandmother with Alzheimer's disease and see no good in living like that. If my family loved me I would have a life purpose, of being a sweet old lady giving love to them the best that I can, but my family does not love me. They think I am a really awful person so I have no contact with the children. That wouldn't matter if I could complete the book but I can not do that either, so what is the point? It is not that life sucks but mine is not getting any better. :lol:

5. He was always curious or impatient to find out if heaven and hell really existed. He had prayed and prayed to his god and in a dream, he received (perfectly rational in his opinion) permission from his god (no suicide exclusion clause) to come join his god now and enjoy the heavenly paradise as he had done enough in his life lived so far to qualify under well established god criteria. — universeness

That is the one I will choose. Except it would really suck if death were not much different from life. I have read that if we are stuck in a bad place in our lives, it is much easier to get through that and move on to a good place in this three-dimensional reality. In the next realm, it takes much longer to pass through a bad spot. I think it is pretty important to have our heads in a good space when we cross over.

I have always believed our elders are valuable people, but when we can not take care of ourselves and be useful perhaps it is our duty to leave life to the young? Do you realize an increasing number of homeless people are elderly people and they are at a higher risk of dying on the streets than the young? For sure I would rather be dead than be one of them and the way rents are going up, I could be one of them. — Athena

I am not sure you would settle for such a situation Athena. We all need help to care for ourselves sometimes. Have you not cared for many others in your life, would it be so wrong to expect a little care in return? When I imagine myself homeless and on the streets, especially if I cant figure that it was completely my fault then I think my sense of injustice would kick in. I would try to organise my fellow homeless and move into or protest in a local theistic building (church, chapel, mosque, temple, cathedral etc) or I would try to occupy my local town hall or live/die outside the door of my local MP etc.
I would make as much of a political nuisance of myself as I could, to call for better protection of the elderly. I would die happier knowing that I lived true to myself until my last breath.

I can not imagine anything really cool happening that I would want to stay around for. — Athena

A change in family circumstances that improve things? One family member making the effort to talk to you about the current family situation in a constructive way?
A cure for Alzheimer's?
A visit from aliens?
Donald Trump getting jailed?
A comedy show on TV which makes you laugh more than you have ever laughed in your life?
Deciding that you will finish and publish your book despite the difficulties?

That is the one I will choose. Except it would really suck if death were not much different from life. I have read that if we are stuck in a bad place in our lives, it is much easier to get through that and move on to a good place in this three-dimensional reality. In the next realm, it takes much longer to pass through a bad spot. I think it is pretty important to have our heads in a good space when we cross over. — Athena

Your head will be in a good place when you cross over, I guarantee it! But live out your life in full.
How about TPF member @Ken Edwards in his 90's, can hardly walk but still has an attitude of 'no surrender?'

am not sure you would settle for such a situation Athena. We all need help to care for ourselves sometimes. Have you not cared for many others in your life, would it be so wrong to expect a little care in return? When I imagine myself homeless and on the streets, especially if I cant figure that it was completely my fault then I think my sense of injustice would kick in. I would try to organise my fellow homeless and move into or protest in a local theistic building (church, chapel, mosque, temple, cathedral etc) or I would try to occupy my local town hall or live/die outside the door of my local MP etc.
I would make as much of a political nuisance of myself as I could, to call for better protection of the elderly. I would die happier knowing that I lived true to myself until my last breath. — universeness

Good morning love. I did all of that during the Reagan years. When I owed a home. I did it because I wanted to get people out of my home and they needed help. I opened my home to many young people during the great recession and then to add insult to injury, as soon as the recession ended, rents skyrocketed, and that put even more people on the streets! I joined with homeless guys and we did things to get media coverage. We stormed public hearings and when we got political the city used the police to drive them from town.

My granddaughter did, even more, a few years ago before she was given a campground to manage. My sister is still extremely active rescuing people on the streets and dealing with people in the seats of power. My sister lives in a different city with much less to offer. Where I live, those in power finally accepted we can not house everyone in regular housing so they started building tiny homes in little clusters all over town and they are supervised. We have added counseling services to our mix of assistance. Today I am hunting for a homeless man I met yesterday because he has to get hooked up with a hospital to get help getting off the streets- he had a stroke and his head is not working! I am advocating for the man and his daughter who are camped in front of my apartment. :lol: I know a little about being homeless and a little about being political, and I am glad you would take action if you became homeless.

As for allowing others to help me. If I could live in retirement apartments where there is a dining room and weekly housekeeping, and I was allowed to do something useful, then I would do that. It is about quality of life. If I can no longer be useful it is time for me to go. We all die and we need to accept that gracefully.

:lol: OMG, yes, living to see Trump jailed may qualify as something worth living for. A change in my family would be super, not just for me but the children. There would be no big problem if the situation with children did not trouble me. Oh and speaking of that, it has everything to do with what education for technology has done to our culture. Values are so changed and this is a serious social problem that has torn families apart. This is especially hard for grandparents. They all advised me to hold my tongue and don't try to change anything. Fine, but I am not living for my family beyond my ability to be independent. My son and daughter were at home when I cared for my grandmother with Alzheimer's and we have an agreement that I can leave this world if I get like that. I just have to act on that decision before I can not act on it. It all hinges on my independence and usefulness.

Oh, have you seen the movie, Harold and Maude? Maude kills herself on her 80th birthday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mz3TkxJhPc

Good morning Athena. So you are a veteran fighter from a family of veteran fighters and you gained that very admirable title without killing people in a foreign land. An excellent legacy imo. I would like to read that book about you and your family and all the battles you fought for the economically and socially oppressed. Has that book been written and if not why not and why don't you write it. All you need to do is describe all the events that happened, someone else could record into a computer. I would buy that book, it sounds very interesting.

OMG, yes, living to see Trump jailed may qualify as something worth living for. A change in my family would be super, not just for me but the children. — Athena

Two hits in my first attempt is not bad.
What about seeing Putin fall after Russia experiences a Vietnam type defeat against Ukraine?

What about meeting a child in a store or on the street who fires one of those smiles at you which is just indescribable in its sublime honesty and innocence?

but I am not living for my family beyond my ability to be independent. — Athena

Independence is very important I agree but you are not done yet.
I was not as down in the trenches in quite the same way as you or as often as you.
I was a political activist from an early age and marched/canvased for socialist causes.
I was most active on the union front and was involved in a fair number of industrial disputes and fights for workers rights. I was even a union shop steward for a time.
My 85 year old mother who lives with me has terminal breast cancer, she will not accept treatment but will continue until her last breath. She has always been a very strong woman. I have good sibling support.

Oh, have you seen the movie, Harold and Maude? Maude kills herself on her 80th birthday. — Athena

No but the actress who played Maude was still alive at the end of the film i'd bet!
I like the music of Cat Stevens and I like the actress Ruth Gordon (On August 28, 1985, Ruth Gordon died at her summer home in Edgartown, Massachusetts, following a stroke at age 88. Her husband for 43 years, Garson Kanin, was at her side and said that even her last day of life was typically full, with walks, talks, errands, and a morning of work on a new play.)
I most liked Ruth Gordon as the mother of Philo Beddoe in the 'Every which way but loose' and 'Any which way you can,' Clint Eastwood movies.

Perhaps there are still some movies you need to see Athena.
Some good things you still have to witness.
I have always liked many of the lines in the song below:

Good morning Athena. So you are a veteran fighter from a family of veteran fighters and you gained that very admirable title without killing people in a foreign land. An excellent legacy imo. I would like to read that book about you and your family and all the battles you fought for the economically and socially oppressed. Has that book been written and if not why not and why don't you write it. All you need to do is describe all the events that happened, someone else could record into a computer. I would buy that book, it sounds very interesting. — universeness

The book has nothing to do with my family except my grandmother was a teacher and her generation of teachers thought they were defending democracy in the classroom by helping children learn to read, write and do math, all are about learning HOW to think. They also taught good citizenship. The book is based on the old books I have read and collected regarding education. The purpose is to understand the importance of culture and the importance of education for transmitting that culture. That is the only way it is possible to have liberty and justice.

I quit working on the book and a blog I started because my brain is not functioning well enough to do those things. On the fun side, several of my stories were published in a book about hippies. On the serious side, a few newspapers published my ideas about social justice over a period of many years. Now my greatest wish is for someone, who does have writing skills and shares my interest, who will pay attention to my collection of old books and write about what education, culture, liberty, and justice have to do with each other. It drives me crazy to listen to the news and all the talk about all the problems we have, and NO ONE CONNECTS THOSE PROBLEMS WITH IMITATING GERMANY. I don't care who explains what happened I just want the media to stop talking as though what is happening is a complete mystery. It is not a complete mystery. It is the same thing that happened to Athens, Rome, and Germany. However, I think we can keep it simple and simply say adopting the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education put the US on the same path Germany followed.

What about seeing Putin fall after Russia experiences a Vietnam type defeat against Ukraine? — universeness

I don't need to live to see that, but if it did happen, it would please me very much. However, remember we thought war with Afghanistan was the USSR's Vietnam war, and we armed the folks like Bin Laden and gave them training, and when the USSR walked out we walked in. Wouldn't it be fun if we could replay history like we used to be able to replay the early Nintendo games?
Vietnam and Afghanistan are our failures just as Athens got carried away with its military success and started abusing its power. We have a problem with understanding morals. We should not behave as we do not want others to behave.

What about meeting a child in a store or on the street who fires one of those smiles at you which is just indescribable in its sublime honesty and innocence? — universeness

Last Wednesday I met a man at the senior center and I am praying he is there this coming Wednesday. A couple of months ago he had a stroke that makes it impossible for him to think and he is homeless. I can get him into shelter but I have to find him to do that. Last week I left the room to wash dishes and hoped he would stay and play Bingo until I got done with the dishes. I knew better. It was obvious he was not capable of playing without help and everyone else was avoiding him. If I see him this week I am not leaving him until I know where is sleeping so I can find him again. I hate it when I am trying to help a homeless person and I can not find them. My sister deals with the problem daily. It feels great to get someone to the hospital in time or get them into housing or give them a tent, but there are a lot of bad moments too.

If I had the kind of relationship with my family that your mother has, I would do as your mother is doing. I hope you realize how important that is to the decision.

quote="universeness;735098"]Perhaps there are still some movies you need to see Athena.
Some good things you still have to witness.[/quote]

Hum, the title of this thread is life sucks and you are arguing we should want something so much we are willing to stay alive for it. I see a chance for some philosophical thinking here.

I kept a high school notebook. When I was 16 or 17 years old I wrote a story about a woman who was given artificial parts every time a part of her body malfunctioned. She could not die because her artificial parts kept her alive. This is a horror story because everyone she cared about had died and the only thing she wanted was death.

I still agree with that. My time in history is past and just about everyone I know is glad to be close to the end. What we have today is not new and improved or more efficient to us. What we value is in the past, not the future, and don't want to be part of the future we see coming. My family appreciates that I intend to end my life if I am diagnosed with something like Alzheimer's or ALS and that I will not become a burden to them. What should I want more than peace with my life and the end? Winning a million-dollar lottery could be fun, but that is not likely.

It's quite surprising that there are no documented cases of people suiciding out of, well, curiosity and nothing else. — Agent Smith

I wish that were true but many children are dying because of a stupid social media challenge.

Parents of children who died during 'Blackout Challenge' sue ...https://www.jsonline.com › story › news › 2022/07/05 › p...
Jul 5, 2022 — Milwaukee parents sue TikTok over the death of their daughter, 9, who hanged herself during 'Blackout Challenge' The parents of a 9-year-old ... — Bruce Vielmetti

There are a lot of unexplained suicides. The cops immediately suspect murder but my hunch is that not all of 'em are.

Universeness and I had a discussion on that issue a coupla days ago.

There are a lot of unexplained suicides. Universeness and I had a discussion on that issue a couple of days ago. — Agent Smith

“The highest risk groups are older men,” says Pearson. “In fact, white men who are 85 and older have a rate of suicide that’s 4 times the national average.” — news in health

I think there could be a philosophical explanation for this. Or a psychological cause that everyone wants to deny- getting old really sucks! I had a good friend who killed herself because she could not bare to lose her independence and was left alone far too much as emphysema slowly took her life. But there are also biological considerations.

Over the decades, Arango and her colleagues have conducted detailed studies of brain structure and biology in hundreds of suicide victims. They’ve found that certain brain regions in suicide have fewer nerve cells and altered receptors for neurotransmitters. Abnormalities related to the neurotransmitter serotonin have been linked to suicide in many studies. Scientists have not yet figured out if these flaws in serotonin directly contribute to suicide or—more likely—if serotonin is one part of a complicated chemical pathway to suicide. Serotonin is also believed to play a key role in depression and response to stress and trauma. — news in health

So, in principle, an assassin could simply lace a cup of coffee with serotonin and make the victim kill himself? The perfect murder. Let's not go giving killers ideas now, ok?

I think we need some help being philosophical about suicide so I googled the subject.

In ethics and other branches of philosophy, suicide poses difficult questions, answered differently by various philosophers. The French Algerian essayist, novelist, and playwright Albert Camus (1913–1960) began his philosophical essay The Myth of Sisyphus with the famous line "There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide" (French: Il n'y a qu'un problème philosophique vraiment sérieux : c'est le suicide).[1]


Contents
1 Arguments against suicide
1.1 Absurdism
1.2 Christian-inspired philosophy
1.3 Liberalism
1.4 Deontology
1.5 Social contract
1.6 Aristotle
2 Neutral and situational stances
2.1 Honor
2.2 Utilitarianism
3 Arguments that suicide is permissible
3.1 Idealism
3.2 Libertarianism
3.3 Stoicism
3.4 Confucianism
3.5 Other arguments
4 See also
5 References
6 Further reading
7 External links — Wikipedia

Merci beaucoup for the link; I have a feeling I've already bookmarked it on my browser. I'm mostly concerned about so-called unexplained suicides which I define as those suicides that simply don't make sense - no financial issues, no chronic illnesses, no mental disorders, you get the idea. Such people who take their own life do so for no reason at all - someone is at his office, doing his work, and suddenly he says to himself "You know what, I think I'll kill myself; I just feel like it!" and then jumps out the window. These suicides are what I find worthy of further investigation.

So, in principle, an assassin could simply lace a cup of coffee with serotonin and make the victim kill himself? The perfect murder. Let's not go giving killers ideas now, ok? — Agent Smith

But I paid good money for the service.

I like what my grandson said about dying. "I don't mind dying, I just don't want to see it coming."

I think most of us, if not all of us, want our deaths to be very fast. You know, the sudden heart attack or going to bed at night and just not waking up. But there is something good to say about having time to say our goodbyes and come to terms with the parting.

:ok:

Merci beaucoup for the link; I have a feeling I've already bookmarked it on my browser. I'm mostly concerned about so-called unexplained suicides which I define as those suicides that simply don't make sense - no financial issues, no chronic illnesses, no mental disorders, you get the idea. Such people who take their own life do so for no reason at all - someone is at his office, doing his work, and suddenly he says to himself "You know what, I think I'll kill myself; I just feel like it!" and then jumps out the window. These suicides are what I find worthy of further investigation. — Agent Smith

Now that one could be brain chemistry. It could be something like the depression some women have after giving birth to a child because their hormones get messed up. The news health link explains the possible brain chemical problem.

Now that one could be brain chemistry. It could be something like the depression some women have after giving birth to a child because their hormones get messed up. The news health link explains the possible brain chemical problem — Athena

Indeed, so-called "chemical imbalances" (in the brain) can trigger unusual behavior including but not limited to suicide. However, they, to my reckoning, don't happen spontaneously - there's got to be an (external) cause (depression due to social/financial/romantic/etc. issues).

My interest is solely in suiciders with normal brains.

The book has nothing to do with my family — Athena

I know, I wasn't referring to that book you have started writing. I was referring to the book about your family members involved in fighting for basic human rights, that I think you should all write. From what you have typed so far, that sounds like it would be a very interesting book.

Last Wednesday I met a man at the senior center and I am praying he is there this coming Wednesday. A couple of months ago he had a stroke that makes it impossible for him to think and he is homeless. I can get him into shelter but I have to find him to do that. Last week I left the room to wash dishes and hoped he would stay and play Bingo until I got done with the dishes. I knew better. It was obvious he was not capable of playing without help and everyone else was avoiding him. If I see him this week I am not leaving him until I know where is sleeping so I can find him again. I hate it when I am trying to help a homeless person and I can not find them. My sister deals with the problem daily. It feels great to get someone to the hospital in time or get them into housing or give them a tent, but there are a lot of bad moments too. — Athena

Let me use one of those theistic morality tales you are fond of.
The story of the rich folks rolling their gold coins into the collection boxes, when a poor old bedraggled woman roles a small copper coin in and Jesus talks about how the old woman's contribution is worth more that all the gold coins rolled in by the rich put together. The idea being that the rich wont miss those coins but the old woman probably wont eat as much that day. This is a lead in to the 'rich man, the camel and the eye of a needle,' crescendo. You give of yourself to help others. This is much more that Bill Gates writing charity cheques. You love what you do so keep doing it until your last breath.

I like what my grandson said about dying. "I don't mind dying, I just don't want to see it coming." — Athena

I like Woddy Allan's 'I am not afraid of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens.' and what Spike Milligan has on his gravestone, 'I told you I was ill!'
I also like the many old gravestones and even some modern ones i'm sure, with the words:
As you are now, so once was I,
As I am now, so will you be,
Prepare yourself to follow me.

We are all going the same way, unless there is a major breakthrough in transhumanism or some kind of cloning tech that your brain can be transplanted into. We will all die but perhaps not today or tomorrow or.... whatever! That's all we get for now. I agree with euthanasia or assisted suicide but only when the alternative are ALL very bad!