If I had the kind of relationship with my family that your mother has, I would do as your mother is doing. I hope you realize how important that is to the decision. — Athena

I do and I don't know the details of the rift in your own family but I had many major fall outs with siblings and my parents in my life. My mother was always the main person who would work so hard to bring family members back together. It took some years to achieve in some cases due to the nature of some of the fall outs.
I can only exemplify from my own experience, only you know if there is anyway to close the rifts in your own family.

Food for thought:

For the first time in world history there are more people on the planet over age 65 than under five.

That will have profound implications for the trajectory of human population and thus of human civilization.

I know, I wasn't referring to that book you have started writing. I was referring to the book about your family members involved in fighting for basic human rights, that I think you should all write. From what you have typed so far, that sounds like it would be a very interesting book. — universeness

Really? I never thought of that. What would be interesting about that? Do you know Jefferson plagiarized John Locke? But John Locke said "life, liberty, and property" not "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

I suppose we could do a thread about the moral demands of our human rights. But the brain issue means I won't be writing any books. Now that I am experiencing this, I wonder if it was not also behind Hemmingway's suicide.

Hemingway's Suicide Caused by his Doctors - Dr. Gabe Mirkinhttps://www.drmirkin.com › histories-and-mysteries › h...
Apr 15, 2022 — He was driven to suicide by extreme pain, depression and loss of mental function. Taking a routine family history should have led his doctor to ... — Brett and Kate McKay

I think it is wrong to blame the doctors. So far we can not stop the deterioration of our brains and bodies.

You love what you do so keep doing it until your last breath. — universeness

The issue of this thread is life sucks and I am saying old age sucks. I am not sure I should still be driving and what I do depends on driving, unless I could get into a large facility and be allowed to be useful. I am explaining old age can mean losing our independence and becoming useless. The philosophical arguments for suicide express my thoughts of this situation.

Confucianism holds that failure to follow certain values is worse than death; hence, suicide can be morally permissible, and even praiseworthy, if it is done for the sake of those values. The Confucian emphasis on loyalty, self-sacrifice, and honour has tended to encourage altruistic suicide.[13] Confucius wrote, "For gentlemen of purpose and men of ren while it is inconceivable that they should seek to stay alive at the expense of ren, it may happen that they have to accept death in order to have ren accomplished."[14] Mencius wrote:[15]

Fish is what I want; bear's palm is also what I want. If I cannot have both, I would rather take bear's palm than fish. Life is what I want; yi is also what I want. If I cannot have both, I would rather take yi than life. On the one hand, though life is what I want, there is something I want more than life. That is why I do not cling to life at all cost. On the other hand, though death is what I loathe, there is something I loathe more than death. That is why there are dangers I do not avoid ... Yet there are ways of remaining alive and ways of avoiding death to which a person will not resort. In other words, there are things a person wants more than life and there are also things he or she loathes more than death. — Wikipedia

I can only exemplify from my own experience, only you know if there is anyway to close the rifts in your own family. — universeness

You are working so hard to rescue me and that is sweet, but after caring for my mother with ALS and my grandmother with Alzheimer's disease it is a matter of honor to end my life when I still can. My son and daughter were teenagers when the family moved my grandmother into my home and they know they do not want to deal with caring for me. It is not a family disagreement but all of us knowing the unpleasant reality. Death is not the worst thing. We all die, Some Buddhists think of death daily as an intentional preparation for death.

If I had a million dollars I would create a space for people wanting to end their lives. We celebrate birthdays and weddings and why not dying? The space I would create would be surrounded by nature and inside I would use projectors to project on the walls any scenery a person may want. There would also be a sound system and the space would accommodate the friends and family who want to be there. Some native Americans gather when a family member is crossing over. Where I live we have the right to die and I think it would be nice to make the moment as pleasant as possible.

Now I have to go take care of someone's dog before going to work. The man is back in the hospital. I really don't like caring for his dog but it must be done. I hope he comes home from the hospital soon. Just a heads up, I may be busy for a while. Not that I have that much to do but I need to rest and when my energy is low I can not think well enough to write even a post.

Really? I never thought of that. What would be interesting about that? — Athena

The real lives of people are far more interesting that fiction. I have just finished the memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant. His portrayal of the Mexican war and his experiences in the America civil war, increased my knowledge and understanding of what drives people in very significant ways.
Your family has gained a lot of experience about how people live with economic, political and social abuse at the extremes of the society they exist within. That is very important on so many levels.

Do you know Jefferson plagiarized John Locke? But John Locke said "life, liberty, and property" not "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". — Athena

There are many arguments and counter arguments about who said what, when and why etc. You can only study the evidence yourself and judge accordingly. I would need at least 1000 years of life to even start to know the truth about what I really need to know the truth about.

But the brain issue means I won't be writing any books. — Athena

So dont write them, talk them, matbe your sister would type what you talk and would add her own stuff, maybe its the book that could help heal the family rifts. Suggest it as a social responsibility project towards helping the next generation understand the issue of homelessness and economic abuse, make it a business proposition, no emotional content so you can all ignore the family rifts.

I wonder if it was not also behind Hemmingway's suicide. — Athena

I'm not a Hemingway fan. He was too much of a self-obsessed, self-aggrandising, narcissistic pr***! for my tastes.

I think it is wrong to blame the doctors. So far we can not stop the deterioration of our brains and bodies. — Athena

Yeah they can be treated unfairly at times but they do have crazies amongst them as well.

The issue of this thread is life sucks and I am saying old age sucks. — Athena

I understand your complaint Athena. I sent you a song with the words 'dont give up' repeated often.
I even cited Helen Keller who had many 'cant do's to cope with but still lived to her last breath.
It's your life and your choice when to terminate it. I am just giving you my personal pennies worth that you should not surrender without declaring war first and losing every battle, and even then......

By all means read the words of Confucius and anyone else you choose but it's your life not theirs.

You are working so hard to rescue me — Athena

Do you want to be rescued?

it is a matter of honor to end my life when I still can. — Athena

You have no idea what might happen in the time you have left. There may be more people you need to help and if you are not there then they may also perish before their time. How honourable is that?
Yes, you're right! I have just laid a unfair burden of guilt on you. So if you help another few people because you decided to stay a little longer then Kudos for me as well!

My son and daughter were teenagers when the family moved my grandmother into my home and they know they do not want to deal with caring for me. It is not a family disagreement but all of us knowing the unpleasant reality. — Athena

My own father went through 6 years of deterioration before he died due to multiple brain infarctions. He saw hallucinations all around him. He eventually reverted to an almost child like state with symptoms very similar to Alzheimer's but he had some lovely, rare moments of lucidity as well and he had many tender moments with my mother and his family before he died. My mother was also the main force when her mother took Alzheimer's as her father and her 6 brothers were not able to cope with it. 8 years of it.
My mother also states that if she took Alzheimer's she would rather just be gone. So I do understand your point of view but I know my mother would not surrender easily and I am sure you will do the same.

If we spent more money on medical research instead of paying it out to shareholders then perhaps we would have cured Alzheimer's by now.

If I had a million dollars I would create a space for people wanting to end their lives. We celebrate birthdays and weddings and why not dying? The space I would create would be surrounded by nature and inside I would use projectors to project on the walls any scenery a person may want. — Athena

Have you been watching the assisted suicide scene from the film Soylent green again?:


Don't worry about posting on TPF, post when you want to and have the time to.

So dont write them, talk them, maybe your sister would type what you talk about. — universeness

It is possible to use technology to type the spoken word, but I have always thought better when writing. If I can not write the thought then I am even less likely to speak it. Kind of the reverse of others who get writer's block and can not think of what to write. I used to spend my whole day, day after day with cups of coffee and at least a pack of cigarettes and writing. When I learned, that with a computer we can move whole paragraphs around, I bought one made before the internet. A young man programmed it for me so it did what I wanted it to do as easily as Windows.

Oh how I love those days. Caffeine and nicotine are the writer's friends. And being in the creative flow is better than good sex. :lol: I was also a night janitor and at night the world was mine. I loved being alone in buildings going through my routine and setting the scene for tomorrow's performance. I would so do that again if I could. Loosing my ability to do that, is for me, like it is for a star athlete who can no longer compete. Cleaning a bank is a good balance to writing. I eventually got a good partner and we would go to the Larry and Kath's restaurant for our break. Oh my, those were good days.

My sister and I were raised by a single mother when women did women's work for low pay and there were not many opportunities for them to do otherwise. When the hippie movement started our mother said she though she was always a hippie. Even though we had very little money, we always had enough to share with those less fortunate than us. Not until high school did I realize we were the poor, only our mother was intent on being middle class and our grandmother was a professional, a school teacher when school teachers didn't earn that much money. My sister had a career that means retiring with money and I am blown away that she has been so committed to resolving homeless problems. But that sure comes from our mother!

Oh man, it is time for me to pick up a client. At least I am going in a very good mood after thinking about the things that made me happy and why my sister and I are determined to help others.

My mother spends a lot of time reminiscing and talking about the past and events in her life. It's a nice way to spend time with family over drinks etc but the only trouble is that we know all the stories. Still, I think she is happy when reminiscing, worth living for, to remember!

My mother spends a lot of time reminiscing and talking about the past and events in her life. It's a nice way to spend time with family over drinks etc but the only trouble is that we know all the stories. Still, I think she is happy when reminiscing, worth living for, to remember! — universeness

That is what I mean. We are full of life and our lives are what is behind us. Old age is a time of coming to peace with our lives. Sooner or later just getting dressed for the day is a chore. I make myself go to the pool and swim laps and work out in the weight room because I know my life will get worse if I don't, but it also does not mean having the body I once had and being able to do the things I once did.

:lol: As I struggle to get out of a chair, I complain to the women over 90 about how hard it is, and they assure me it gets worse and they don't like what happens to us either. In general, we are surprised that we are not the people we once were and that just getting through the day is harder than we thought it would be. On the other hand, we are glad we don't have the stresses younger people have and we are glad to leave this planet because we don't like some of the changes. Mostly we miss the receptionist answering the phone and the custom of trying to please the person who made the call, instead of expecting the person to know the organization and the right number or the right person to speak with, and company policy that clearly is not about pleasing the person who needs the service. In many cases what we are dealing with is far more complex and inefficient than in the past and so bloody cold and impersonal or excessively cheerful and not professional! We really feel sorry for the young.

It is hard to imagine knowing we die and not preparing for it. I have been preparing for death for as long as I can remember. Just in case there is life after death I make an effort to know as much as I can. I do not want to be sitting at the great dining table in the sky with the great people of history and be totally ignorant. :sad: If there is nothing after this life, I have still enjoyed all the learning. My life is much richer than it would be if I had not put so much effort into learning.

Have you been watching the assisted suicide scene from the film Soylent green again?: — universeness

That was pretty good. Not exactly as I imagined a place for dying but close. It is sad because there was no family or friends with him. When my granddaughter and a cousin sat in a room with the cousin's dying sister, they reminisced about the past and cracked jokes, and laugh a lot. Judging by the heart monitor the dying woman was good with what was happening even though she could not communicate because of severe brain damage, but when her X came in and got all dramatic, it was obvious that was not what she wanted and the man was removed from the room.

I am not sure if there is life after death, but I suspect people who have crossed over have communicated with me.

On the subject of life sucks, I remember a cartoon from many years ago when I was struggling with depression. The cartoon was a man at the service counter in heaven. The caption read, "I don't like life. Do you have anything better to offer?" That helped me decide it was up to me to make the best out of life that I can because there is nothing better than life. And going from the video you posted, I don't think there are many planets as good as ours. With all our natural disasters, earthquakes, volcanoes etc. this is still a pretty nice planet. And I bet the people who are struggling to survive because of flooding or drought, are not thinking about killing themselves but are thinking about how they will survive.

I have still enjoyed all the learning. My life is much richer than it would be if I had not put so much effort into learning. — Athena

That sounds like a good priority to have in life.

That was pretty good. Not exactly as I imagined a place for dying but close. It is sad because there was no family or friends with him. — Athena

He had his best friend with him, played by Charlton Heston! He was behind the glass and he spoke to him about the scene's he was seeing of the way the Earth used to be. Big Charlton who played Inspector Thorn ended up in tears. This was Edward G Robinsons last film and he died soon after it was made.

In general, we are surprised that we are not the people we once were and that just getting through the day is harder than we thought it would be. — Athena

Have a look at the short clip from my fav Sci-Fi series Babylon 5, its only under two minutes but quite profound in my opinion.

And going from the video you posted, I don't think there are many planets as good as ours. With all our natural disasters, earthquakes, volcanoes etc. this is still a pretty nice planet. And I bet the people who are struggling to survive because of flooding or drought, are not thinking about killing themselves but are thinking about how they will survive. — Athena

Unfortunately, Soylent Green is a dystopian movie about what will happen to the world if our stewardship of it does not improve. The old guy chooses suicide as the planet is fast running out of food.
I agree with you that the Earth is beautiful and only a fool would choose to live life as a curse.
I also see the solar system as a blank canvas, just waiting for humans to leave the planetary nest and start to mould it and make it a place which is much more alive that it is now.
Looks like we will have a permanent moon base soon, once the Artemis1 rocket actually launches and starts the process.

Unfortunately, Soylent Green is a dystopian movie about what will happen to the world if our stewardship of it does not improve. The old guy chooses suicide as the planet is fast running out of food.
I agree with you that the Earth is beautiful and only a fool would choose to live life as a curse.
I also see the solar system as a blank canvas, just waiting for humans to leave the planetary nest and start to mould it and make it a place which is much more alive that it is now.
Looks like we will have a permanent moon base soon, once the Artemis1 rocket actually launches and starts the process. — universeness

I think I will need to watch Soylent Green. Right now I can't watch the Babylon 5 video. I have someone sleeping on my floor. He had a stroke a couple of months ago and isn't doing well. I am hoping a friend will be willing to take him in until he gets plugged into the assistance system and has a better place to stay than in his car. Because of his stroke, he is having trouble thinking things through. I am praying I do not get an eviction notice for helping him. And now can speak of morality?

If we do not want to become as Nasi Germany we really need to turn around and head in a different direction. I am hoping what I have to say fits in the theme of 'life sucks". Like really, democracy is supposed to be about raising the human potential and making life better. Our liberty is not a license to do anything we please, but it is the freedom to choose the right thing and that goes with responsibility for our choices.

I have been listening to an audio tape about the Greek legacy, the Greek gods, Homer, the philosophers, etc.. Homer makes it very clear it is our duty to help those who pass our way and need help. I think every civilization begins with a notion that we should do unto others as we would have them do to us.
Now if you had a stroke and could not remember how to get from point A to point B because you had no short-term memory and you could not think through how to meet your needs, how would you want to be treated? As I decent person what should you and I be doing?

I am quite sure your answer would be a good defense for why I should not be evicted for bringing a homeless person into my home but we live with laws that prevent us from doing the moral thing. How is this any different from Naxi Germany? The theme of this thread is life sucks, and I argue preventing people from doing the right thing, does lead to a very unpleasant reality. "I was just following orders".

Indeed, so-called "chemical imbalances" (in the brain) can trigger unusual behavior including but not limited to suicide. However, they, to my reckoning, don't happen spontaneously - there's got to be an (external) cause (depression due to social/financial/romantic/etc. issues).

My interest is solely in suiciders with normal brains. — Agent Smith

I spoke with a man who specialized in counseling suicidal people and I asked him if that was not terribly depressing for him. In a very positive tone of voice, he said no because people are willing to die for something they would live for but they don't know how to get it. He saw his job as helping people figure out how to get what they are willing to die for. He sounded so positive I think he was pretty successful at doing that.

A death wish sometimes comes with grief. I think that is spontaneous but it can take a while to figure out how to end one's life.

Food for thought:

For the first time in world history there are more people on the planet over age 65 than under five.

That will have profound implications for the trajectory of human population and thus of human civilization. — Chisholm

I think you are correct. When the people who need our care are proficient at making their needs known and they vote on how we meet the needs of others, that could have a profound effect on civilization.

Also we may become wiser. Young people remember facts. Older people begin to understand the meaning of those facts and are better at grasping complex concepts. Unfortunately, the benefit may not last and many older people experience a mental decline and for physical and mental reasons may require more help and be less useful.

I hope we rethink many things, such as what qualifies a person to do a job. Merit hiring is useful for some things, but sometimes a person's experience and character are more important to a job. I think education for technology, and merit hiring, have been dehumanizing. I would like to see a shift to more humanitarian concerns and that might come with an aging population.

As you can see, I'm, in a sense, looking for a person who would be willing, no, more than happy, to die for nothing, essentially violating the PSR. To die for something, boring! To die for nothing, now that's what sets a person apart from the rest!

Aramis: The King has ordered me to seek out the secret general of the Jesuits and to kill him.
Porthos: You should let the secret general worry about that.
Aramis: Problem is that, ah... I am he.

:snicker:

I think I will need to watch Soylent Green. — Athena

Not a big hit at the box office but now a bit of a cult classic.

He had a stroke a couple of months ago and isn't doing well. I am hoping a friend will be willing to take him in until he gets plugged into the assistance system and has a better place to stay than in his car. Because of his stroke, he is having trouble thinking things through. I am praying I do not get an eviction notice for helping him. And now can speak of morality? — Athena

I can only feel anger inside at such situations. There should be adequate social services available at a local level to help people effectively and fully in such circumstances. You should be fully supported in your efforts to assist this man and if a landlord threatens you with eviction, then that landlord should not be treated kindly for such an act.

Our liberty is not a license to do anything we please, but it is the freedom to choose the right thing and that goes with responsibility for our choices. — Athena

:clap: I couldn't agree more. Judge people by what they do, not what they say they will do or by what possessions they have or who their family is.

I think every civilization begins with a notion that we should do unto others as we would have them do to us — Athena

The golden rule is one of the best standards there is imo.

I am quite sure your answer would be a good defense for why I should not be evicted for bringing a homeless person into my home but we live with laws that prevent us from doing the moral thing. How is this any different from Naxi Germany? The theme of this thread is life sucks, and I argue preventing people from doing the right thing, does lead to a very unpleasant reality. "I was just following orders". — Athena

I can only echo your sentiments, second your emotions and add another old adage. 'Evil thrives most when good people do nothing.'

Argument against antinatalism

1. Suffering = Dying [premise]

2. If you mind suffering, you mind dying [from 1]

3. If you mind dying, you mind death [premise]

4. If you mind suffering, you mind death [2, 3 HS]

5. Death = Nonexistence [premise]

6. If you mind suffering, you mind nonexistence [from 4, 5]

7. If you mind nonexistence, antinatalism is false [premise]

8. If you mind suffering, antinatalism is false [6, 7 HS]

9. You mind suffering [premise]

10. Antinatalism is false [8, 9 MP]

QED

I can only feel anger inside at such situations. There should be adequate social services available at a local level to help people effectively and fully in such circumstances. You should be fully supported in your efforts to assist this man and if a landlord threatens you with eviction, then that landlord should not be treated kindly for such an act. — universeness

Thank you so much.

'Evil thrives most when good people do nothing.' — universeness

Thank you thank you! That is the very meaning of our liberty!

What you said is very important to me. I have offended a friend who is a Christain and could have helped him but instead was totally self-centered and told me if I got evicted for breaking the rules it would be my fault for making that decision. I don't think she gets the moral decision and what you said about evil. Time and again I have seen evil take hold because people would not stand together to oppose it. We are going in the wrong direction by making it illegal to help others. Not even mothers dare help their grown children if they are doing drugs, without fear of eviction. Can you imagine! Laws that prevent family from helping family, And then we turn around and blame gays for ruining family values. It is not the gays ruining family values. It is education for a technological society and the values of that society, which turn to dependency on the state instead of dependency on family and each other. Does that make sense? Can you see that?

:lol: "Give me liberty or give me death." I am adding that to give some continuity to what we were talking about. Many people are not happy with social changes such as replacing the old-fashioned receptionist with recordings and all the specialization that makes doing business very complicated. And having to call 3 or 5 different offices to find the right person for the job is not efficient! We want the receptionist who knew everything and saw it as her job to find the department we need to speak with. The receptionist did all the work and we could depend on her to get us the information or whatever else we needed. That specialization is new. In the past we were generalists and the receptionist knew more than the man at the top because she thought it was her job to know the organization and how to help people. Phone trees are hell. They are impersonal and force us to be submissive to technology and that is right next to ignoring our Jewish neighbors are being taken away. I grew up with the notion we answer to God, not human authority.

Right now someone claiming to have a bedroom for rent is wanting us to complete an application and send money, before we even see the bedroom. :gasp: We are texting and I made it clear, that we do business face to face and see the bedroom or we don't do business. Craig's list is known for scams and I will not bend on meeting people face to face.

To kill one's self or not is partly intellectual and partly emotional. I don't think the decision can be reduced to a purely rational one. Everything you mentioned has a moral weight and that involves feelings. I am willing to die for some things but not others and that is because of the moral weight or the factors involved in the decision.

To be frank I'm not worried as much about dying for x than I am about killing for y.

I also have examples of 'warnings' or 'proposed consequences,' If I interfered. I was given a letter by my own union to cross a picket line by office staff on strike at the school I worked in, I DID NOT, nor ever will cross a picket line, no matter what shit letter I was given. It became regional policy within our school system, that a teacher should not physically break up a fight between pupils for fear of getting accused of assaulting the pupils involved. I HAVE ALWAYS, physically broken up any fight I have came across between pupils. I would never stand by and watch pupils hurt each other, damn the consequences, and so on.....

It is education for a technological society and the values of that society, which turn to dependency on the state instead of dependency on family and each other. Does that make sense? Can you see that? — Athena

I am a socialist/humanist. I believe that the means of production, distribution and exchange of any significant size should be owned by the people, for the people and not as a means of generating profit for the rich or those who aspire to become such. I would also not allow any private citizen to own land. Technology which assists the means of production distribution and exchange must also benefit all people and not just the very few. I advocate for getting rid of money as the main controller of exchange.
The state must serve the people and support family as well as family supporting each other.

We want the receptionist who knew everything and saw it as her job to find the department we need to speak with. The receptionist did all the work and we could depend on her to get us the information or whatever else we needed. That specialization is new. In the past we were generalists and the receptionist knew more than the man at the top because she thought it was her job to know the organization and how to help people. Phone trees are hell. They are impersonal and force us to be submissive to technology and that is right next to ignoring our Jewish neighbors are being taken away. I grew up with the notion we answer to God, not human authority. — Athena

I have no problem with automated systems that work. I would like to offer all receptionists the opportunity to follow their vocations and be able to take their basic means of survival for granted.
I am not trivialising the problems you raise in your quote above but it's our collective responsibility to ensure that any automated system improves the lives and personal security of people and does not reduce it in any way. I would not blame technology for people ignoring the forced removal of their neighbours (due to the fact they were Jewish or based on any other such unacceptable reasoning). I would blame the people who use technology for such purposes. Guns don't kill people, people kill people but it's still really dumb to arm your citizens in the way they do in the USA.

Right now someone claiming to have a bedroom for rent is wanting us to complete an application and send money, before we even see the bedroom. :gasp: We are texting and I made it clear, that we do business face to face and see the bedroom or we don't do business. Craig's list is known for scams and I will not bend on meeting people face to face. — Athena

The situation you describe above is because you live under a horrible, capitalist, free market economy (as do I), where private landlords can almost do as they like. If you had a lot more money, you would not have to deal with these 'basic survival' issues you currently have to deal with. Is that how people should be forced to live? Completely controlled by how much money you can access? It's other humans that force this way of life and they are actually very few in number, globally.
They need to be 'overthrown,' permanently!
A newlywed couple or a child reaching the age of 18, should be provided with good quality accommodation, free of charge, as a human right from cradle to grave. Competitive fighting pits, such as Craig's list should not be able to exist.

Hum, I have been listening to lectures about ancient Greek ideas on character and morals. How could you describe your character? Does your character allow you to do what is wrong?

This is the thread I was thinking of yesterday.

Whenever I received the message: unsuitable I thought my life is a completely disaster. I came across to think that suffering from failures doesn't help anyone. It is a very complex task to accept how we are and how we can better persons both professional and personal.
I don't even know why I am optimist right know... I guess is thanks to Greek mythology or Japanese way of Bushido.
Anyway, I feel better whenever I share my thoughts and problems around here. It is better to just keep it them only with myself.

Are you asking me these questions Athena? I will assume you are.
My character is for others to judge but I hope I am judged by others on what I do.
I would describe my character as nuanced, myriad, conflicted and complex but I try to live as much as I can by the golden rule. I am capable of utter hatred towards those who live by exploiting or abusing others.
I will do wrong in the service of what I believe to be right and just.
Would I cause the death of innocents to destroy a greater evil. In the final analysis and if I could find no other way, then probably yes, but could I live with myself afterwards like Truman or Churchill, probably no.

I also have examples of 'warnings' or 'proposed consequences,' If I interfered. I was given a letter by my own union to cross a picket line by office staff on strike at the school I worked in, I DID NOT, nor ever will cross a picket line, no matter what shit letter I was given. It became regional policy within our school system, that a teacher should not physically break up a fight between pupils for fear of getting accused of assaulting the pupils involved. I HAVE ALWAYS, physically broken up any fight I have came across between pupils. I would never stand by and watch pupils hurt each other, damn the consequences, and so on..... — universeness

And in the US, liberty meant that is your decision. No one could force you to do that and no one could prevent you from doing that. Destroying that liberty is to become as Nazi Germany where authority decided what people would and would not do. The consequences of destroying our liberty are social destruction and this pushes us to the controversy of our right to carry guns. Our problem is we have serious social problems that make it unsafe to allow individuals to own guns. And that brings us back to education. In ancient Athens, education was lifelong and about citizenship. If we do not recapture that connection between liberty and education, we are doomed.

I am a socialist/humanist. I believe that the means of production, distribution and exchange of any significant size should be owned by the people, for the people and not as a means of generating profit for the rich or those who aspire to become such. I would also not allow any private citizen to own land. Technology which assists the means of production distribution and exchange must also benefit all people and not just the very few. I advocate for getting rid of money as the main controller of exchange. The state must serve the people and support family as well as family supporting each other. — universeness

I do not agree with that paragraph. I am in favor of private ownership and control. However, not laissez-faire economics. A policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without interfering. have been mentally lazy and ignored all the issues of economics and we are not well-informed voters.

I am not trivialising the problems you raise in your quote above but it's our collective responsibility to ensure that any automated system improves the lives and personal security of people and does not reduce it in any way. I would not blame technology for people ignoring the forced removal of their neighbours (due to the fact they were Jewish or based on any other such unacceptable reasoning). I would blame the people who use technology for such purposes. Guns don't kill people, people kill people but it's still really dumb to arm your citizens in the way they do in the USA. — universeness

Oh, what a delicious argument you opened. I think if you were aware of how technology has changed our expectations and our values and how we think you would see the social change more clearly. This subject is so complex I don't know where to begin. Perhaps a thread about how technology has changed our lives and the input of many people would be helpful.

The receptionist was someone who served everyone, her employer and the public. That is a frame of mind. That is not what someone is thinking when answering the phone today. What rules our thinking is policy and organization. The job of answering the phone has been narrowly defined and the person answering that phone knows nothing except the correct connection that needs to be made and the person who answers the phone has no power but reacts like a programmed switch. If the person answering the phone steps beyond the definition of the job, s/he will be reprimanded. The control is at the top not with the individual. This is why I object to none of us having private property and control. I fear nothing worse than that control from the top. As Tocqueville said our democracy would be a despot and everything is fine as long as everyone appreciates the decisions from the top. Have you read Tocqueville's book "Democracy in America" written around 1830? As a teacher that might be the most important book, you could offer your students if they are old enough. Living under the decisions made at the top may not be the way to go. Like Locke said about the king/father, that would be fine if like the parent the king worked for the child to become independent.

The situation you describe above is because you live under a horrible, capitalist, free market economy (as do I), where private landlords can almost do as they like. If you had a lot more money, you would not have to deal with these 'basic survival' issues you currently have to deal with. Is that how people should be forced to live? Completely controlled by how much money you can access? It's other humans that force this way of life and they are actually very few in number, globally.
They need to be 'overthrown,' permanently!
A newlywed couple or a child reaching the age of 18, should be provided with good quality accommodation, free of charge, as a human right from cradle to grave. Competitive fighting pits, such as Craig's list should not be able to exist. — universeness

Another delicious disagreement. I think we need to rethink economics but even more important is education for good character and good moral judgment. Only a police state controls everything. Liberty begins with governing oneself and independent thinking. I am old school. Business is done eyeball to eyeball and depends on our good judgment of character and more. If I know you and can deal with you face to face now and in the future, I will hold you accountable for keeping your word and under that condition you may be more concerned about what I think of you and how I will react if you are not a good person. Only when our democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended and this means managing life on a social/cultural level, not depending on the despot to take care of us.

I do not think we should provide for individuals without good cause because then we have people with weak character, doomed to be dependent on others. It is the parent's responsibility to raise children to become independent but they can not do this alone. The parent's efforts must be supported by the school system and youth programs and how about good media all focusing on a good culture and human dignity?

I came across to think that suffering from failures doesn't help anyone. It is a very complex task to accept how we are and how we can better persons both professional and personal. — javi2541997

Anyway, I feel better whenever I share my thoughts and problems around here. It is better to just keep it them only with myself. — javi2541997

For me, It was such a vital moment when I deeply understood that an hour will pass anyway, regardless of my mental state. I CAN CHOOSE to experience that hour as a curse, or I can struggle against such with the intent to defeat it. I choose to fight despair anytime and every time it attack's me. I have experienced more happiness in my life so far than I have experienced despair with this approach.
I will leave it to Captain Kirk to express his and my opinion of personal pain:

I CAN CHOOSE to experience that hour as a curse, or I can struggle against such with the intent to defeat it

Amazing quote, friend. If you do not mind I will keep it with me. I feel it so motivational :up:

I am in favor of private ownership and control. However, not laissez-faire economics. A policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without interfering. have been mentally lazy and ignored all the issues of economics and we are not well-informed voters. — Athena

Then you must continue your struggle with your landlord as regards your rent for living where you live and with his/her power to evict you and make you homeless. I will continue to fight for what I believe is a better way.

I think if you were aware of how technology has changed our expectations and our values and how we think you would see the social change more clearly. — Athena

I am aware of such and the 'we' you refer to does not include me. I see technological advancement as a sword which cuts both ways. It can be a tool to make the rich richer but it is also a tool that can free the majority from crap jobs and allow them to educate themselves and communicate globally and organise resistance globally.

We all have our favourite books Athena and our favourite commentators and comments from the past.
The only system that is truly about rule from the top is one which sustains a totalitarian monarch, autocrat or self-proclaimed divinity. I would be in armed revolution against such a system if I lived under it. Free market capitalism based on some pseudo-democratic voting system such as the 'first past the post,' system I live under in the UK (although we have made some progression in Scotland with our re-established parliament/government based on a PR voting system), is more common in the west.
Free market capitalism is a much-diluted version of a plutocracy, and it will, inevitably be replaced by a humanist/socialist system imo and technological advances will eventually assist in bringing down free market capitalism as the money trick becomes fully revealed to more and more people.

I will hold you accountable for keeping your word and under that condition you may be more concerned about what I think of you and how I will react if you are not a good person. — Athena

I fully agree with you here and this must be the measure of everyone who is given authority over people's lives and who represents their interests.
If socialists/humanists do not or cannot do what they said they would do before they were elected, then they cannot continue in power. I personally would not be concerned about what you or anyone else thinks about me as I would hopefully be too busy trying to ensure I do exactly what I promised to do.

I do not think we should provide for individuals without good cause because then we have people with weak character, doomed to be dependent on others. It is the parent's responsibility to raise children to become independent but they can not do this alone. The parent's efforts must be supported by the school system and youth programs and how about good media all focusing on a good culture and human dignity? — Athena

I advocate for 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.'
People are very complex, we have to have a very smart, fair, balanced, compassionate, sociopolitical system which is very very difficult to con or abuse. Not easy to achieve but that remains the goal and always will be the goal if the human race is ever to become able to evolve into a species which is benevolent to the universe it exists in and become an interplanetary and interstellar species.

Amazing quote, friend. If you do not mind I will keep it with me. I feel it so motivational :up: — javi2541997

YOU CAN WIN AGAINST DESPAIR! AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!
Decide/demand/command and FEEL differently! FLIP IT!
When I get those down, desperate, depressing feelings for whatever reason, I will get PISSED OFF and I will FLIP THEM. I will fight them in my head, they will return and I will fight them again and eventually I will win. I will distract myself, I will write, paint, go on to forums, look for old hero's who inspired me and will read or watch them again. I will go out and walk, fast and long, I will........ spend that hour fighting despair and the next one as I know those hours will pass regardless so I choose to fight my inner demons and I can, have and always will defeat them. From hell's teeth I will spit at them!
I CHOOSE LIFE!!!!!

A more nuanced approach to suffering seems to be in order vis-à-vis aurea mediocritas

1. Excess suffering.
2. Moderate suffering.
3. Deficit suffering.

Both 1 & 2 are incompatible with life. Suicides & CIP (congenital insensitivity to pain) attest to that. Moderate suffering, hitting the sweet spot, where suffering is bearable and also does what it's designed to do, keep us safe and sound is not only desirable but also necessary given the givens of our mental & physical constitution.


So if we could find solutions to excess suffering, natalism has a shot or, inversely, antinatalism stops making sense and as for deficit suffering, current best practice in medicine is to restore the nociceptive system to level 2 (moderate suffering). Google "treatment" for CIP (naloxone) and leprosy (antibiotics).

The future, however, can be radically different - like how bioluminiscence has delinked light from heat, we maybe able to do the same with suffering, decouple the detection of injury from the unpleasantness associated with it.