I think the only viable understanding of truth (in the propositional not in the 'truth as aletheia' sense ) we have is that truth corresponds to, or is about actuality. (In the 'truth as aletheia' sense actuality is not a state of affairs but the living truth as it is revealed). — John
In many possible worlds frameworks, truth simpliciter is defined as truth with respect to a privileged world, sometimes designated w@, that is, the actual world. — The Great Whatever
correspondence entails dualism of some kind. — Mongrel
One of the problems with a dualistic outlook is the challenge of explaining how the two supposed "realms" relate to one another. In other words... how does a truth-bearer correspond to a truth-maker? This is obviously intimately tied to the issue of how mind relates to the world.
An externalist approach to knowledge says that there is no need to work that question out. We just start by acknowledging that there are sentient beings who interact with their world. We note cases of "reliablity" in these interactions. That reliability is all there is to knowledge.
Gettier problem. Theories of knowledge are in flux at present. The problem is central to philosophy of mind. — Mongrel
If actuality is a dream, all the parts still have to interrelate — Mongrel
If actuality is a dream, all the parts still have to interrelate. — Mongrel
Correspondence, as I see it is a purely logical relation between what I say and what I experience or what I would experience. — John
Thanks for all your comments! I think I may have fuel to keep going with my scheme. Does it matter if it makes sense to anyone else? In the final analysis... probably not. — Mongrel
I hope someone in this thread will explain the importance of truth. As a latecomer to philosophy, I still haven't grasped why it matters so centrally. But I feel like the village idiot sometimes in looking for ways of saying this, ('In what way is language about truth-conditions?') because it seems so obvious to so many people that it's central. — mcdoodle
The first thing that pops to mind, at least, is that in saying "Truth is actuality" you're just reifying truth -- treating the concept of truth as if it were a thing. Now, maybe it is an object, as you say -- but you'd have to qualify that somehow, I think. Clearly truth is not like my desk, or my cup, or a myriad other objects. If truth is an object then it would seem that it is closer to numbers, as long as they are objects too.
Then there would be the question -- is it true that truth is actuality? How would you deal with that?
I don't know if these are problems. Just thoughts of mine. — Moliere
To suggest that the truth doesn't matter is itself a truth claim. Hence, it clearly does matter, otherwise, the person making such a claim would never make it in the first place. — Thorongil
Don't know if this help...
... I find truth (or certainty) to be a 'process' rather than an 'actuality'. It is a dynamic process subject to adaptation of actuality of status via the accumulation of information/experience.
I find this to be more deductive and empirical than intuitive. — Mayor of Simpleton
I'm not going to pop up with anything pronto on that front. I'm attending a course of lectures starting tomorrow, so it may be March before I even have a semblance or appearance of knowing what H is talking about! — mcdoodle
As my lately adopted mense on issues of mental health, I pay close attention to what you say. — Mongrel
But I wasn't saying that truth is empirical or intuitive. It's the way things are, whether we observe it or intuit it. The truth may be beyond our grasp. What this means, though, is that truth is the way things are.... that which actually is. — Mongrel
Banno would sniff at non-propositional truth.
But he's not on this forum, so we can proceed without his council. — Mongrel
I think Yaha was thinking that I've dug myself a ditch for no reason. — Mongrel
Not very charitable of him.
Could you explain how I'm reifying it?
My thinking is that it's a word. I'm defining it. This is AP heresy because of Frege's proof that it's unanalyzable. That proof starts with the assumption that truth is a property of statements or propositions.
"True" does appear in language as a property of statements. But I think it's easy enough to translate these usages to "truth" as an object of knowledge. The truth is what we want to know.
Most often, it's that we want to know what is, as opposed to what could be. In short: actuality.
Mathematical truth is something I handle with tongs. I'm not a mathematician, and I've concluded that Banno is right. Math is a game. Truth in math works pretty much the way truth works in a game. — Mongrel
A world contains things. We reside in the actual world, as opposed to the one in which Christianity never came into being, for exampleThe reason I thought you were reifying truth is because actuality is thing-like . . . or at least contains things in it. So my thinking was that if truth is actuality, then the lamp on my desk and the desk and my phone, and so forth, are all parts of truth, because they are also parts of actuality. — Moliere
Reality and actuality are also concepts... both closely related to the concept of truth.But even so, then it would seem that truth is part of reality, where I would say that reality or actuality are metaphysical questions, and truth is a concept. There's no truth "out there", so to speak, or behind the veil of appearances. — Moliere
Interesting. I got interested in AP for wanting to know how their answers to questions would vary from H's. So.... I would love to hear from you after you've digested some of H's ideas.
I've long wanted to do a group reading of the OWA. Maybe you'd be interested after your sojourn? — Mongrel
To suggest that the truth doesn't matter is itself a truth claim. Hence, it clearly does matter, otherwise, the person making such a claim would never make it in the first place. — Thorongil
My guess is that the most common use of "true" has to do with deception. Consider the requirements of a good lie. It has to be believable. It has to be a possible world. What is the truth in these cases? The actual world. — Mongrel
When someone says "I'm seeking the truth" or "We fear we'll never know the truth about what happened to Bill..", what's meant by "truth" is actuality: of all the things that could be, what actually is.
This is pretty intuitive, but I think it would generally be dismissed as an example of the flexibility of language. Truth as a property of statements is supposed to be the meat and potatoes of philosophy. I think this preoccupation with truth as a property results in the adoption of weird externalist approaches where, for example, scientific knowledge arises simply from noting reliability.
Imagine that truth as actuality is closer to the heart of the matter. The truth of statements is the oddity of language use and the conundrums that arise there are the result of missing the use of metaphor.
I'm looking for challenges to this view... to help me think it through. What am I missing? — Mongrel
I wasn't building an edifice here. I just meant to suggest that thinking of truth as a property of statements is a recipe for confusion. The fact that "the truth" often stands in contrast to a state of affairs that conceivably could be indicates that truth is actuality.The plausible is not the true. I feel much conversation hinges on plausibility not truth. And the pleasure of fiction seduces us by being plausible...ok, so what if...? - and then...? — mcdoodle
The motto of the IEEE used to be something like: 'Engineering: Bringing Ideas into Reality.'Now, my Heidegger reading has already reached 'Higher than actuality stands possibility.' For me actuallity flits by and then is irretrievable, ah, memories, evidence, ghosts, what am I to believe? All we can do is make up dialogues and narratives about it. The possible is great fun, and rebounds back on the actual. Rub on a lamp of Moliere's and a genie appears to grant a wish, tell a marvellous story. So they say over in 'fiction'. Or over there in 'science', it turns out we can use lamps for wifi - who'd have thought there was even such a possibility until some geek imagined it? — mcdoodle
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