A "return" to Thatcher and tired neoliberal policies. What a pity. But the Tories might as well go all-in while they can, before they're booted out a la 1997. Hopefully you don't end up with another Tony Blair. Starmer seems like a joke, but anything is an improvement over Truss.

Jeremy Corbyn. — ssu

He was one of the few brave politicians who critized Elizabeth II openly and publicly saying: the British monarchy needs a lot reforms according to modern world.

I think the UK should get passed Brexit finally and tackle the present problems. — ssu

Unfortunately, there is no getting past Brexit, hence the slogan 'Get Brexit done'. The Irish question cannot be resolved. As long as North and South were in the EU, the border could be open and thus demilitarised, and the EU functioned as an overseer of fair play. But separation entails a border, so the options are the breakup of the UK and reunification of Ireland, or the imposition of a manned border and resumption of civil war. The current fudge of a paper border in the Irish sea pleases no one and and cannot be sustained forever.

So no deal with the US at least while Biden is king. As far as I can see, the scheme is now to bankrupt the country and move to Panama or somewhere more conducive with the takings. There is no attempt to deal with the crisis at all.

Report from UK. I just completed a Government questionnaire for small businesses about data protection. Question 2 was: "Do you process any data outside the EU?" Answer: "Our data-processing happens inside the UK. The UK is outside the EU. Hadn't you heard?"

Unfortunately, there is no getting past Brexit, hence the slogan 'Get Brexit done'. The Irish question cannot be resolved. As long as North and South were in the EU, the border could be open and thus demilitarised, and the EU functioned as an overseer of fair play. But separation entails a border, so the options are the breakup of the UK and reunification of Ireland, or the imposition of a manned border and resumption of civil war. — unenlightened

I wouldn't see it on such dramatic terms.

I think the EU itself ought to look at this from a new light. OK, so the Union has now an ex. Yet it's an ex that everybody actually still likes. For example, for my country the UK is a very important trading partner. Hence the new "ex" should be approached just like other non-EU countries, like the US or Canada (or Norway), where good relations are an objective for the EU also. There's still so much to be done together with the ex, just like taking care of security issues, which just cannot be forgotten. The EU simply is in utter denial, if it thinks this ex of it's doesn't matter anymore.

For the EU the stance that "I don't have anything to do with you now after we broke up" simply doesn't cut it.

For the EU the stance that "I don't have anything to do with you now after we broke up" simply doesn't cut it. — ssu

The EU has never said anything like that, though. It is the UK which is separating, and not taking their relationship with the EU seriously enough.

As for NI, there's no way out of the dilemma highlighted by @unenlighted. The best and simplest solution in my view would be to reunite Ireland.

I'm with @Oliver5. The EU has to have some control of its external borders; We could have agreed to stick with the single market, but we didn't, we could have stuck with the customs union but we didn't, we could have stuck with free movement but we didn't. And now there is complaint that because we don't want to cooperate on any these issue, the EU insists on having some checks on the flow of goods into its territory. How very dare they!

(I think I might have to change my handle to 'undelighted'. )

The EU has never said anything like that — Olivier5

Well, not literally, just as the UK hasn't been referred to the 'ex'.

And now there is complaint that because we don't want to cooperate on any these issue, the EU insists on having some checks on the flow of goods into its territory. How very dare they! — unenlightened

Ok.

How about the border between Finland and Sweden and non-EU member Norway? If I move to Norway or a Norwegian moves to Helsinki, the only thing I have to do is to change my address. That's right, no applications, no passports, no permits needed. No control at the border. After changing my address, then tax officials notice it and I'll start to pay taxes to the new country where I live.

The EU-Norwegian border hasn't been a problem. Absolutely none.

Why?

Because Norway is part of the European Economic Area, the EEA.

This was an option that was thought about in the case of the UK, but for some reason, this wasn't OK for either UK or others. Perhaps being a member of EEA would have been too much for the Brexiteers, I don't know. So you ended up with a clean table. That's the problem here.

The EU has never said anything like that
— Olivier5
Well, not literally, just as the UK hasn't been referred to the 'ex'. — ssu

I mean that the EU never said it won't cooperate with the UK. In fact it has been extremely patient.

In fact it has been extremely patient. — Olivier5

Indeed. The EU has so far tolerated a country that has chosen not to be a member of EU not being a member of the EU. Even the UK is finding it hard to tolerate itself not being a member of the EU and the UK is the country that left. I suppose we should remember that it was equally intolerable when the UK was a member. A lot of crockery was flying around and the shouting bothered the neighbours. But at least we were together. Sort of. Ever Closer Union and all that.

But at least we were together. Sort of. Ever Closer Union and all that. — Cuthbert

Brexit completely disappointed me in terms of democracy. How can a country like UK what fought for the allies has left and countries who cause World Wars (as Germany) remains? Wow

I'm very fond of Germany. But I don't want us to get married. Lisbon was putting a ring on it and somehow it seemed too big a step. I voted to stay in the EU but I think it's better as a practical flatshare rather than a joint mortgage.

Indeed. The EU has so far tolerated a country that has chosen not to be a member of EU not being a member of the EU. — Cuthbert

It's not like they had any choice in that matter of course. (In addition, some pro-Eu folks do actually agree that the UK never really belonged in the EU, not the way other members try to belong and contribute. Why then not separate agreeably if you can, like in a divorce based on mutual agreement, to use a metaphor you seem to like?)

What I meant was that all during the protracted (read endless) negotiations, the EU tolerated inordinate amounts of crass incompetence, dishonesty and political shallowness from over the Channel.

crass incompetence, dishonesty and political shallowness — Olivier5

Oh, you know what we're like. Doing the metaphor to death, perhaps they thought their love could change us? It should always have been just a practical arrangement. Getting on in life and thinking of the family and being faithful is not really the UK's strength. If you want a no-rules fight or you suddenly need a bunch of money no questions asked where it came from, the UK is the boyfriend to have.

some pro-Eu folks do actually agree that the UK never really belonged in the EU, — Olivier5

I remember an interview with an academic shortly after the 2016 vote who said that 'The UK is currently in but half out - no single currency, no Schengen, rebates - and after this is all over it will end up out but half in.' I can see that happening.

Doing the metaphor to death, perhaps they thought their love could change us? — Cuthbert

Thanks for that pearl and the chuckle. And it's true: certainly the EU project is transformative. It's meant to reconnect folks in a broader and more consensual narrative for instance. Hence the 'EU speech', a parlance replete with notions of togetherness and solidarity that all continental politicians can speak. It doesn't mean they all mean it all the time, it can behave as a mantra, a pretense even. But enough of them mean enough of time that the project goes on.

I remember an interview with an academic shortly after the 2016 vote who said that 'The UK is currently in but half out - no single currency, no Schengen, rebates - and after this is all over it will end up out but half in.' I can see that happening. — Cuthbert

There's a lot of wisdom packed there., And perhaps a bit too much wisdom. We should remember that Brexit always has been and remains an irrational project, not one based on a cold calculus of risks and opportunities, but a protest, a desire for something else, for something more out there, an irresistible élan towards one more glorious, heroic, perhaps hopeless act of sheer irrationality. An attempt at jumping in the unknown.

Understood as inherently irrational, Brexit or some of its features become strangely easier to understand.

The NI protocols for instance the UK trying to have its cake and eat it too: the UK ought to be both a unitary state from a regulatory standpoint, and honor its obligations in the Good Friday agreement for a lack of hard border between NI and the Republic of Ireland, all the while creating a hard border between itself and the EU, of which the Republic of Ireland is a member.

That is an irrational expectation. Which is perfectly normal and to be expected in a wholly irrational process.

The NI protocols for instance the UK trying to have its cake and eat it too: the UK ought to be both a unitary state from a regulatory standpoint, and honor its obligations in the Good Friday agreement for a lack of hard border between NI and the Republic of Ireland, all the while creating a hard border between itself and the EU, of which the Republic of Ireland is a member. — Olivier5

You have put your finger on something that I do really care about. As for half-in, half-out, we can work it out in time and if we'd stayed in there would still be grieving and rows and crying to leave just as now we've left there is still crying. Oh, but Ireland. When I think of our Michael Gove telling us that there would be a virtual border managed by technological wizardry - and then threats of violence in Liverpool and Belfast - and my goodness, these people are not playing with delays at Dover or with logical curiosities, they are playing with lives and terror.

I used to play a game when listening to interviews with politicians. I would draw a quick sketch map of the islands from Ireland to the Channel Isles and then from listening to what the politician said I would try to draw the border between the UK and the EU. I never managed. All fine, till I got the Irish Sea. Then dotted lines and question marks everywhere. As far as I know it's still like that.

d my goodness, these people are not playing with delays at Dover or with logical curiosities, they are playing with lives and terror. — Cuthbert

Why yes. The EU and its predecessors were/are a peace building project, meant to ensure peace at last in Europe after two world wars and zillions other conflicts of old. And it has been reasonably successful in doing so. It follows that undermining the EU entails a very real risk of rekindling old conflicts like the one in NI.

From a modern historical perspective, UK's colonisation of Ireland is a rather awful story, of which NI is a remnant. It would make a lot of sense for the UK to give up NI, allow Irish reunification, , repatriate a few orangists, and call it a clean slate, a new begining.

Pending such a radical repair of the historical injustice of colonisation, the UK could try and make the agreement with the EU work, by aligning economic regulations in NI with those in effect in the Republic of Ireland. This requires a 'hard border' in the Irish Sea. A bitter pill to swallow but it's the only alternative.

allow Irish reunification, repatriate a few orangists ... 'hard border' in the Irish Sea.... bitter pill to swallow — Olivier5

I am afraid that the bitterness would not be blows to the pride of politicians or unionists or even the nations but violence on the streets. I think the pill to swallow slowly over time will be the fiction that there is a UK / EU border. Endless protraction of protocols, crass incompetence, dishonesty and political shallowness may work in this case, too, but it's a situation the UK should not have created. The UK did not have to sign up for ever closer union, QMV and the rest and it is not the only country with tensions between national and European identities. Irish referendum on the Lisbon treaty, for example. Grexit crisis. This is not a simple case of an isolationist Britain versus all the rest.

This is not a simple case of an isolationist Britain versus all the rest. — Cuthbert

Technically speaking, Brexit was precisely about the UK vs all the rest, and note that the 'rest' stuck together during the negotiations.

At a deeper, political philosophy level, I see it as clinching to the past in an overly irrational way, as explained. And sure enough, every country has its traditionalists and blaming Brussels is always convenient. But you guys really lived your isolationist dream.

note that the 'rest' stuck together during the negotiations — Olivier5

Sure. Nothing brings a family together like a common enemy. To revisit the old metaphor. But the tensions remain and anti-'ever closer' sentiment is a political theme throughout the union. I was thinking about our conversation today and an old Thurber cartoon came to mind - man to wife - 'Well, who made the magic go out of our marriage - you or me?'

Just rolled a cigarette and please to see the 'E' symbol for weight guarantee is on the packet. Not sure I'd trust UK measures...

But the tensions remain and anti-'ever closer' sentiment is a political theme throughout the union. I was thinking about our conversation today and an old Thurber cartoon came to mind - man to wife - 'Well, who made the magic go out of our marriage - you or me?' — Cuthbert

I don't consider the "ever closer union" as actual policy. European integration has been stalled for two decades, its electroencephalogram is flat. It just phraseology.

The real policy is more something like: "When it's really important, we can come together. Or not."

Every polity has problems, in final analysis.. There's no such thing as a perfect political system. So yeah, the EU has plenty of issues. The real question is not whether it's perfect, but whether it's better than what was there before or what one could go back to. And if yes, whether and how it can be further improved and respond to emerging challenges.

Same with the UK. Ain't perfect by any means and some Scots want out. So the polity has to reform and improve, or it will become obsolete.

At a deeper, political philosophy level, I see it as clinching to the past in an overly irrational way, as explained. And sure enough, every country has its traditionalists and blaming Brussels is always convenient. But you guys really lived your isolationist dream.

I would point out another dimension to the Brexit debate. That it was also about an existential crisis within the Conservative party. The majority of the British people had no concerns with EU membership before they had their ears turned by disingenuous politicians.

The accession of Eastern European nations in the EU in 2004 did result in a large influx of EU workers into the U.K. It was poorly managed and provided fuel for populists, who had emerged from the Tory party. This is when it became a live issue.

I agree the expansion eastward was too quick. But history called, and the EU answered something, something they were confortable with: markets.

But history called, and the EU answered something, something they were confortable with: markets. — Olivier5

What should we have done then?

Maybe slow down the expansion, based on more stringent criteria? Or maybe the expansion was the only choice not to miss the "historical moment" of the fall of the USSR. I don't know.

Maybe slow down the expansion, based on more stringent criteria? — Olivier5

Completely agree. Good point :up:

As I see it, it wasn’t that expansion which caused the issue in the U.K. It was the total open door policy without any organised provision of housing, services infrastructure to accommodate the newcomers.

This resulted in exploitation by gang masters, community tensions and immigrants retreating into sink towns. All good breeding ground for populists.

@Olivier5

The objective of “ever closer union” was retained in the Preamble to the 1992 Treaty on European Union (Maastricht Treaty):
Resolve to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity. — https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7230/

It just phraseology. — Olivier5

Well, perhaps it's just sweet words. But not to many people. 'Ever closer union' means that if you're not already as close as you can get, then you can get closer. And for States that means being the same State. Under what circumstances do two different things become one thing? Can things become ever more similar without becoming the same thing? This is the metaphysics of Brexit.

The real policy is more something like: "When it's really important, we can come together. Or not." — Olivier5

We start with shared vision and no more war and common purpose. Now it's 'let's do it if it suits us'. So Brexit is not so much an aberration as just one side of a tension that runs through the whole project. We have that in common with the USA. I submit my case.

So Brexit is not so much an aberration as just one side of a tension that runs through the whole project. We have that in common with the USA. I submit my case. — Cuthbert

I don't see much sign of the US breaking up. My theory is that Brexit is a manipulation of the xenophobic tendencies and imperial nostalgia by the disaster profiteers who have taken over the conservative party. The market manipulation continues with the disaster budget. Expect more crises. It would have been so easy to make a deal with the EU, by simply agreeing to the trade rules - but no, we were so desperate to have the US's chlorinated chicken and fake cheese. But then we couldn't even make that deal, because we 'forgot' the Irish border. I say sabotage!

Here's a nice, concise update from the Financial Times on how Brexit is panning out, especially under the Truss.