And again, this seems to be a failure to differentiate between what is true and what is believed. Things like three-tonne boulders do not care what one believes. What is true is quite independent of what one believes. — Banno
I don't disagree. — Tom Storm
The clearest way to understand this difference is in terms of truth. A realist will claim that there are truths that are not known.
An idealist will claim that there cannot be unknown truths.
So let's take an example. Is there a teapot in orbit around Jupiter (an example from Russell)? We cannot be certain if there is or is not such a teapot. It seems unlikely, but we have not yet inspected every item in orbit around Jupiter.
A realist will say that nevertheless the statement "there is a teapot in orbit around Jupiter" is either true, or it is false.
An idealist will say that the statement "there is a teapot in orbit around Jupiter" is neither true nor false until some mind has made a determination.
Effectively, a realist differentiates between belief and truth, claiming that we can believe or disbelieve in a Jovian teapot, but that this is an entirely seperate issue to there being a Jovian teapot. An idealist will say that the very truth or falsity of there being a Jovian teapot is dependent on a mind variously believing, knowing, perceiving or more generally standing in some relation to that teapot. — Banno
Exactly. And I experience other people through the material world the same as I experience a boulder (light, sound, etc). If I doubt that material world, I should question the existence of both. — PhilosophyRunner
Blame Descartes. If the source of all certainty is "I think therefore I am", then all there is, is what I think. — Banno
An idealist might argue that since they cannot be certain of the existence of others, they owe others no regard. — Banno
the fact is that solipsism as a theory is irrefutable. — GLEN willows
it seems to me the argument is that all human beings exist - in as much as they are separate instantiations of consciousness — Tom Storm
the fact is that solipsism as a theory is irrefutable — GLEN willows
is worth further consideration. That you are occasionally proud or embarrassed shows, rather than proves, that you reject solipsism.Of course I don’t live like that — GLEN willows
Subjectively is the only means we have of knowing a physical world whatsoever. — boagie
However I am curious about those who doubt the realness of the material world yet accept the realness of other people's consciousness, given that the only interactions we have with other people's consciousnesses is via the material world. I see, hear, touch, etc other people - all material interactions. If I doubt those material interactions are real, how can I infer other people are real? — PhilosophyRunner
The idea is that physical sensation or matter is how consciousness seems when viewed from a particular perspective — Tom Storm
I didn’t say it was correct. — GLEN willows
And the fact that I - or anybody - rejects solipsism doesn’t mean it isn’t true. — GLEN willows
Idealism is true ... to an extent! You really don't want to doubt the external reality of a a 3-ton boulder rolling down the hill, straight at you.
— Agent Smith
But idealism doesn't say there are no risks in what we call the 'physical world'. The physical world is seen as a kid of dashboard of readings which make consciousness apprehensible (al la Donald Hoffman). In this view of idealism, you may still be harmed by things which present as physical to our dashboard system. They just aren't what we think they are. — Tom Storm
But how do I know other people are also not just an illusion simulated by my mind? For me experientially, it is only my consciousness that has a privileged position. — PhilosophyRunner
My experience of computers, Tom Storm and boulders are indistinguishable in that they are all part of this physical dashboard I experience. It makes no sense for me to privilege Tom Storm as a conscious entity over the rest. They are all just inputs in the dashboard I experience.
However It does make sense for me to privilege my own consciousness, as that is the consciousness that I inhabit and experience directly (a la the Descartes quote). Hence the resultant solipsism. — PhilosophyRunner
How do you know today isn't the first day of your life and all your memories are implants? — Tom Storm
It is a good indication that the materialist is not right in that things are not always just as they appear. — boagie
If the source of all certainty is "I think therefore I am," then all there is, is what I think. — PhilosophyRunner
From that, it does not follow that all there is, is what I think (there is). It is absurd to claim there is nothing other than what I, or humans in general, can think. — Mww
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