I'd like to know what existential threat NATO was/is to Russia. — jorndoe
Whatever that may be (if any) would be put in context with the observed bombing killing destroying shamming threats re-culturation efforts. — jorndoe
How exactly do you propose we identify a 'Ukrainian' in a way that isn't racist? — Isaac
why "more than a little distasteful"? Happens all the time, just check periodical condemnation of Israel. — jorndoe
Simple. One could use nationality, or self-identification. Eg anyone with the legal papers, or anyone self identifying as Ukrainian, gets to be seen as Ukrainian. — Olivier5
Was that an attempt at humouring me? — Olivier5
Much of the Isreal-Palestinian conflict for the past half century has been about borders, those of 67 vs those orior 67. I.e. the status of the "occupied territories". — Olivier5
I don't know of much condemnation of Israel that isn't about methods, not borders. — Isaac
Why does having the right piece of paper, or worse still, the right 'feelings' confer on a citizen of Lvov the right to have a say in the future of some land 600 miles away that they've never even seen, but denies that right to someone living and working within a stone's throw of its border? — Isaac
I don;t see the problem. — Olivier5
Why does having the right piece of paper, or worse still, the right 'feelings' confer on a citizen of Lvov the right to have a say in the future of some land 600 miles away that they've never even seen, but denies that right to someone living and working within a stone's throw of its border? — Isaac
Should the Ukrainians be consulted over whether Russia is entitled to their lands? — Paine
How do you assign moral weight? — neomac
Define: "have a say". — Olivier5
Why should they NOT be consulted? — Olivier5
Okay so there lies the answer to your question: in a democracy., citizens are expected to have a say. — Olivier5
I asked what moral weight there was to consulting the citizen of Lvov and not the citizen of Rostov. [...]
I asked why they ought to be - what gives their view greater moral weight than mine, or yours, or the nearby Russian's — Isaac
A priori, nothing. A poll is just not a moral statement.
I suppose one should also consult the opinion of the nearby Russians, the pro-Russian folks in occupied territories, etc. — Olivier5
Some classes of human activities are 'moral', they concern a loose affiliation of behavioral types we've grouped under that umbrella term for various reasons (although some consider there to be only one reason, but that argument's irrelevant here)
When someone asks "what is the moral weight behind that?" they are asking for reasons why the behaviour in question belongs in that group and not some other. — Isaac
How do you decide that the location of the line dividing Russia from Ukraine is irrelevant, merely an administrative matter? On factual terms, there are people who see borders and national identity not as irrelevant nor as merely an administrative point.The point I'm making here is that the location of the line dividing Russia from Ukraine is utterly irrelevant, an administrative matter. It has zero moral weight. — Isaac
I'm asking you, what reasons you have to hold such a moral prescription: "the location of the line dividing Russia from Ukraine ought to be considered irrelevant, and bearing zero moral weight". — neomac
Because Ukraine is supposed to be a democracy. — Olivier5
In addition to my response above, Ukraine is not currently a democracy. — Isaac
I would definitely argue that the average citizen of the US has more of a say (via lobbying their politicians, who lobby the US government, who lobby/fund the Ukrainian government), than the average citizen of, say, Lvov. — Isaac
Directly, it's up to the actual soldiers, diplomats and support staff doing the fighting/negotiating (they could refuse). — Isaac
Less directly, the government of Ukraine — Isaac
Less directly still, the government's funders, supporters, lobbyists and pollsters — Isaac
Absent a referendum or election I don't see how the Ukrainians en masse are going to get a say, — Isaac
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