the point I was making is that you and Russia don't consider it representative of the people who live there. — Paine
I guess some don't want to get dragged along downhill, and some don't want to implicitly or explicitly assent to (reinforce/encourage/support) the regress.
Why would anyone jump onto a degenerative path/trend (toward an unknown future)? — jorndoe
The short answer is that Russia is a police state. There are more political prisoners now in Russia than in the later years of the Soviet Union. A ruinous path can be followed easily.Putin's Russia went regressive, downhill.
Not really the best; all those nukes and Kinzhal don't help either, and at the fingertips of a creepy autocrat?
Having gone down that trajectory matters — we take it into consideration when making assessments, important people use it when making decisions.
All the bombing killing destroying shamming re-culturating really doesn't help.
I guess some don't want to get dragged along downhill, and some don't want to implicitly or explicitly assent to (reinforce/encourage/support) the regress.
Why would anyone jump onto a degenerative path/trend (toward an unknown future)? — jorndoe
What are the odds that pampered westerners will stoically endure this looming impoverishment? — yebiga
Portugal btw. was the last Western country to hold on to it's African posessions by fighting colonial wars (in the 1970's) thanks to having a fascist regime. The regime was finally overthrown in the Carnation Revolution and finally Portugal ended it's wars in Africa. Before the revolution the colonial wars both in Angola and Mozambique were draining like 40% of the Portuguese governments budget. (The hasty and immediate retreat of the Portuguese from both countries created unfortunately a void that lead to civil wars in both countries)Who cares? The Russian economy is rather small. You think the world economy will tank if we boycott Portugal? — Olivier5
Where have I said that they don't represent the Ukrainian people? — Isaac
There's no such entity as 'the Ukrainians' to even ask. — Isaac
Where have I said that they don't represent the Ukrainian people? — Isaac
There's no such entity as 'the Ukrainians' to even ask. — Isaac — Paine
Russia claims ... that Ukraine is an integral part of their nation. — Paine
If the Ukrainians are found to employ anything like the disinformation regime used by Russia on their citizens or conduct the war as barbarously as they have, that would make your method weighing of the cost of surrender against the cost of resistance more reasonable. — Paine
In this case, the existence of the state is directly tied to its legitimacy as an 'entity' of the Ukrainians. — Paine
don't know, except, in principle, no — jorndoe
a degenerative path/trend (toward an unknown future)? — jorndoe
oust the autocrat circle, then new paths would open up — jorndoe
How would it be a different decision if Ukraine were an autocratic dictatorship? They'd be in exactly the same position with regards to weighing territory loss against the cost of continued war. — Isaac
Portugal btw. was the last Western country to hold on to it's African posessions by fighting colonial wars (in the 1970's) — ssu
They would not have the same level of support that has allowed them to repulse the Russians as much as they have. — Paine
The people fighting would not view the change of government as significant if the leadership was as brutal as the Russians. — Paine
Both factors shape any kind of negotiated deal. — Paine
Might not ethnic Russians in Donbas want to become part of Russia to help — Isaac
the Ukrainian government have banned opposition parties, censored opposition press — Isaac
Putin's EmpireThe Russian Federation has rolled their submission-machine out
All the bombing killing destroying shamming re-culturating
Since 2014, Donetsk + Luhansk (≈ Donbas) have been an organized Russian staging area, and Crimea was grabbed
And for our country, this is ultimately a matter of life and death, a matter of our historical future as a people. And this is not an exaggeration: it is true. This is a real threat not just to our interests, but to the very existence of our state, its sovereignty. — Putin · Feb 24, 2022
And in the end, if nothing at all can be done, the aim is the same: to destroy them, to wipe them off the political map.
[...]
Russia is simply upholding its right to exist and to develop freely. — Putin · Oct 27, 2022
you think a chaotic Russian "Viva la revolución" is likely here? — jorndoe
You really think that's realistic (or a game-changer)? There hasn't been much indication that the autocrat circle is going away. — jorndoe
Hmm I kind of like the other potential development, the Russian justice system pulling weight — jorndoe
it's all conjecture and idle speculation. — jorndoe
the Ukrainian government have banned opposition parties, censored opposition press — Isaac
For the time being, I'm guessing (conjecture on my part) that it's a (perhaps panicky) response to old news — jorndoe
Russo-hate has grown in Ukraine, around here we don't particularly hate Russians. — jorndoe
Who cares? The Russian economy is rather small. You think the world economy will tank if we boycott Portugal? — Olivier5
Yes, I assume it's a temporary measure, but we can't pretend it doesn't have any effect (they wouldn't have done it if it had no effect). It means that, for the time being, dissent in Ukraine regarding the government's course of action is not being properly recorded or represented, which is extremely relevant to the kinds of arguments Paine and @Olivier5 were making about legitimacy derived from popular support. Currently, we have no proper measure of that. — Isaac
Russia (unlike Portugal) is an important source of energy and raw materials — SophistiCat
In a country where opposition media reporting has been banned. — Isaac
I don't know how familiar you are with the general consensus on what constitutes a legitimate mandate, but it's rarely done by lack of pop star opposition. — Isaac
The point was about legitimate mandates. — Isaac
If the Ukrainians are found to employ anything like the disinformation regime used by Russia on their citizens or conduct the war as barbarously as they have, that would make your method weighing of the cost of surrender against the cost of resistance more reasonable. Such circumstances would also reduce the support Ukraine receives from other nations and increase the number of those who view the Ukraine government as an equivalent of the Diem regime in the Vietnam war. — Paine
The country is as at war, so democracy can not function as normal: e.g. do you have any examples of countries invaded by a foreign power that run democratic presidential elections while at war? I don't. — neomac
Zelensky is the president so he has the legitimate mandate to be the president also during wartime according to the Ukrainian constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ukraine#Duties_and_powers). What's so hard to understand, dude? — neomac
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