I am not a theist but you clearly have your prejudices towards them and seem to assume I was one with no evidence. — Andrew4Handel
It took humans thousands of years to start understanding reality.
The notion is that we eventually uncover the correct morality which we discover is implanted by the gods or God.
Some people believe we already have god given moral intuitions and that we are just not following them correctly. — Andrew4Handel
Nihilism is not a good place to be. — Andrew4Handel
I am someone who left a religious cult — Andrew4Handel
What makes these "moral issues" instead of political issues?
What I'm trying to get at is what you mean by "moral" or "ethical" because that's where I suspect much of your (or my) confusion lies. — 180 Proof
We are trying to understand ourselves in the process of that we explore our character in different ways and our limitations and capacities.
Religions have inspired art works and architecture and social systems. People have raised the question of what would existed if religion and beliefs in gods didn't exist.
as I said in a previous post
Science does seem to have to take the position that reality makes sense, is coherent, has laws and responds to human reason.
— Andrew4Handel
We are trying to explain the world under a set of beliefs an assumptions. Some things are explained like the human body and its mechanisms as having a purpose. We don't just accept chaos we believe for some reason in some kind of underlying order.
What reasons would we have believe reality was rational, law driven and explicable prior to religion? — Andrew4Handel
Unconvincing (to me). Why would the creator not provide creation with clear unambiguous guidance from the start, to not only make its intentions clear but prevent suffering? Having us slide into wisdom so gradually across the millennia just seems absurd, not to mention cruel — Tom Storm
believe there is evidence of atheists literally blaming a god for human failings even whilst claiming one doesn't exist and pushing the idea that without god and religion (despite copious counter evidence) we suddenly become rational and moral. — Andrew4Handel
My contention here is that if humans can design morals systems why can't gods? — Andrew4Handel
Do we know and understand God, and know and understand precisely how God accomplishes things (e.g. creating the world, answering prayers, causing miracles, and so forth). — busycuttingcrap
One thing In do believe is that morality cannot survive in a purely physical, design free world where we are just an another animal. — Andrew4Handel
Sure, but why not aliens? You can keep the list of suspects coming, or does 'the magic man' theory help the buck stop somewhere in a way aliens do not? — Tom Storm
I am saying we just need to believe the world makes sense and then ask why it makes sense and has laws and coherency. — Andrew4Handel
Unless morality is adaptive. Which is exactly what many scholars think is the case. So not only can morality survive in a "purely physical, design free world", its entirely possible, even probable, that the reason morality exists at all is because it helped contribute to survival. — busycuttingcrap
Agreed, like theistic religions, based on imaginary deities (i.e. fictions), which are nihilistic.I am concerned with the truth and making up systems on false premises to me is nihilistic. — Andrew4Handel
This is more like "Law" – permissible public conduct / practices – than the three predominant moral concepts of virtue ethics, utilitarianism or deontology, all of which begin with the idea of well-being (i.e. happiness) and none of which are practiced "as if compelled".Morality as in a system of behaviour we expect ourselves and others to follow as if compelled. — Andrew4Handel
I'm afraid like the rest of your post, Andrew, "these questions" are quite confused.These questions so far have no answers.
:halo: :up:Most Christian fundamentalist views make god look like a cunt. — Tom Storm
Science does seem to have to take the position that reality makes sense, is coherent, has laws and responds to human reason. — Andrew4Handel
Just because something survives doesn't mean it is adaptive but nevertheless by that standard religion has been more popular than atheism and has encouraged mandatory procreation has condemned other forms of sex and given people motivation to carry on against the odds so it could also be described as favourable and adaptive. — Andrew4Handel
But it would the naturalistic fallacy to say something was good just because it occurred in nature — Andrew4Handel
I have partial recovered and become an agnostic not trusting any human absolutes. — Andrew4Handel
Indeed. But no one said that something was good just because it occurred in nature. You said that you can't imagine morality surviving in a purely physical design-free world, and I pointed out a mechanism by which morality could exist in a purely physical, design-free world: evolution. — busycuttingcrap
Leaving religion freed me from religious dogma and hypocrisy, abuse etc but it didn't answer any questions. I appreciate the question why is there something? The existence of even just only one atom would raise questions for me. if things can appear for nor reason then causality breaks down and reality makes no sense. — Andrew4Handel
:100:The problem with the explanations of theism is their lack of predictive power ... — Judaka
Yeah, like "the brute existence" of g/G ...To me the brute existence of reality was inexplicable. — Andrew4Handel
Keep in mind these few bon mots while reading what follows:... if things can appear for no reason then causality breaks down and reality makes no sense.
The only answer to the ultimate Why-question which does not beg the question is that there is no ultimate Why.
In other words, there is no sufficient reason for 'the principle of sufficient reason'.
And so "why there is something rather than nothing" must be because nothing stops something from happening. — excerpts from Proofs by 180 Proof
Its also worth noting, though, that God/theism doesn't actually solve the problem of whether (and which) moral norms or judgments are *really* moral or correct- even if God exists and has handed down moral guidelines (via divine revelation/inspiration -> scripture, presumably), one could still ask whether these guidelines are right or correct. So even theism doesn't solve this issue, this is a more generic problem that is going to apply to most if not all moral systems as far as I can tell. — busycuttingcrap
I do not think a morality from a Creator deity/God is arbitrary. — Andrew4Handel
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.