Ah, but appeal IS a central element of what we call truth, especially in the sciences. An important value in choosing one theory over another is aesthetic appeal. The facts have no coherence outside of their relation to our pragmatic goals and purposes. We convince ourselves that we conform our empirical models to the cold, hard facts of the world, but those cold , hard facts are constantly shaped and reshaped by our evolving concerns, expectations and practices. The same goes
for our gods. — Joshs
( I’m speaking both of religion and the view of science as ‘truths that dont care about our feelings’. God and objective realism are tied together, not opposites — Joshs
Once atheism makes claims about wider issues such as about whether there is a creator, whether reality needs a first cause, whether reality is purely physical — Andrew4Handel
whether morality can survive the death of religion etc. — Andrew4Handel
The idea is once you abandon religion the only other option is to be a materialist atheist reliant only on science. — Andrew4Handel
It's interesting how 'absolute certainty' is itself a kind of god in a lot of thinking. — Tom Storm
If you take the Bible literally you've missed its message — Gregory
Loving god is faith/spirituality — Gregory
Do you mean a lot of people think certainty is a god, or that a lot of people think that other people who claim to be certain of something are actually professing a religion? — Vera Mont
appeal IS a central element of what we call truth, especially in the sciences. An important value in choosing one theory over another is aesthetic appeal. The facts have no coherence outside of their relation to our pragmatic goals and purposes. We convince ourselves that we conform our empirical models to the cold, hard facts of the world, but those cold , hard facts are constantly shaped and reshaped by our evolving concerns, expectations and practices. The same goes
for our gods. — Joshs
No. While an 'elegant' solution is much to be desired, and hard to let go, we settle for awkward, inconvenient, mean truths all the time. We always hope they will fit into a larger, more beautiful picture, and sometimes we luck out.appeal IS a central element of what we call truth, especially in the sciences. An important value in choosing one theory over another is aesthetic appeal. — Joshs
No. facts have coherence whether we like them or not. We just make don't all all make use of them all all of the time.The facts have no coherence outside of their relation to our pragmatic goals and purposes. — Joshs
No. Facts do not change. Our perception of them may grow clearer, our understanding of how they fit together may render them less cold, but our concerns and practices shape nothing but our immediate environment, and our expectations are as often dashed as are fulfilled.We convince ourselves that we conform our empirical models to the cold, hard facts of the world, but those cold , hard facts are constantly shaped and reshaped by our evolving concerns, expectations and practices. — Joshs
Oddly enough, I said that very thing in another thread. People take in what they hear, see, feel, read and they remix it in their head according to their previous experience, temperament and needs. Sure.Everyone approaches faith differently because they all experience religion differently. — Gregory
Somebody can think it's literally true (I have some doubt about this: the people I've met who insisted that the scriptures were literally true were quite selective in the parts they quoted. They seem to like Paul for some reason... hm) but either was a woman named Esther in Persia or there wasn't; either she married Xerxes or she didn't; either he retracted the order to massacre the Jews or he didn't. Either Noah built an ark like the one in the Creation Museum in Kentucky or he didn't. I choose to believe Esther existed and Noah didn't, but that doesn't change their histories.The Bible can be true for one and not another. — Gregory
Sweet... for those whom that fickle god likes. I have to squint really hard to see this, and it's not worth the effort. Microsoft fixed Windows 11 so that every time my cursor moves too far left, a window pops up with a too-familiar ugly orange balloon face in one of its frames, hour after hour, day after day... I can't see anything on the actual screen.God gives spirituality to each person as he likes because it is as if we are children on this earth. — Gregory
Stop with this strawman. Atheism does not make any "claims". Atheism is disbelief in god/s. Period.Once atheism makes claims about wider issues such as [ ... ] etc. — Andrew4Handel
An incoherent idea. Idealists like Schopenhauer who are also avowed irreligious atheists expose this (your) patently false dichotomy (which I'd previously pointed out to you at the end of this post ).The idea is once you abandon religion the only other option is to be a materialist atheist reliant only on science.
No. Facts do not change. Our perception of them may grow clearer, our understanding of how they fit together may render them less cold, but our concerns and practices shape nothing but our immediate environment, and our expectations are as often dashed as are fulfilled — Vera Mont
Every monotheism is "the absence of belief" in every god except "the one God" ... that's not saying much. I prefer to be clear: either (A) belief that there aren't any gods or (B) disbelief in every god. – they are roughly synonymous as far as I'm concerned (and is my preferred definition of atheism until about fifteen years ago when I traded-up from mere clarity to precison ...) Anyway, the latter formulation (B) may seem more defensible than (A), but it's not, as they are two sides of the same shekel; complementaries such that (A) warrants (B) and (B) assumes (A).Atheism is the absence of belief in God. — Agent Smith
appeal IS a central element of what we call truth, especially in the sciences. An important value in choosing one theory over another is aesthetic appeal. The facts have no coherence outside of their relation to our pragmatic goals and purposes. We convince ourselves that we conform our empirical models to the cold, hard facts of the world, but those cold , hard facts are constantly shaped and reshaped by our evolving concerns, expectations and practices. The same goes
for our gods. — Joshs
I don't read an "argument" here but instead an "aesthetic appeal to 'aesthetic appeal'" for its own sake. Chasing – sniffing – one's own tail.I know you find postmodernism's approach problematic, but what is your response to this argument [ ... ] — Tom Storm
I prefer more reasoning and less rhetoric in my Bitches Brew ...Do you see this reasoning as having any utility?
Stop with this strawman. Atheism does not make any "claims". Atheism is disbelief in god/s. Period. — 180 Proof
Accordingly, I am in no way (I never have been) ... spiritual. Music is "my religion". — 180 Proof
Loving a god is faith, yes, but spirituality is much more than fidelity to a single supernatural entity or idea, and it doesn't necessarily require "faith" - i.e. believing without evidence. Something as simple as awe when beholding the northern lights or being transported by a Schubert chorale can be a spiritual experience - all the way up to a complex relationship with the web of life. — Vera Mont
Those are questions best left open, as far as this atheist is concerned. — Vera Mont
But we never get a chance never to have heard of the gods. They're in our faces all the time — Vera Mont
For example if I believe that Paris is the Capital or France then that entails I believe London is not the Capital of France and That Berlin is not the capital of France and that A Monkey is not the capital of France. — Andrew4Handel
It often seems to me that some atheists use the lack-theism definition as a way of getting out of having to meet their burden of proof — busycuttingcrap
Religious truths are not like scientific truths. Even scientific truths are relative to a degree. Only God is absolute. If you hold to objective truth and yet remain an atheist because of lack of evidence you're being hard headed and ignoring the whole experience of religion, which is supposed to grow our hearts. God can do anything — Gregory
But I think it is a state of agnosticism not to commit ones self to an opinion on something. — Andrew4Handel
I am not saying atheists need to do this but certain things that come out of the what can be called the atheists community are claims that people can disagree with. — Andrew4Handel
This sounds like you are from The States. — Andrew4Handel
. Also militant atheism and secularism entered universities. — Andrew4Handel
Consider Richard Dawkins for example. — Gregory
some of the crimes of religious organizations and religious men - and he's quite right in feeling that way: those crimes have been enormous in scope and depth. In the present world, a number of very dangerous religio-political organizations are are perpetrating and contemplating further egregious crimes, in the name of the same deity — Vera Mont
What about the crimes of Atheist and non theist regimes Like Stalin, Pol Pot and Chairman Mao and The slaughter of the French revolution? — Andrew4Handel
There is no reason believe that an absence of religion leads to a better society or better people. — Andrew4Handel
Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett et al are not targeting theocratic regimes but the soft beliefs of moderate Christians. — Andrew4Handel
I have no faith in humanity. — Vera Mont
I can't think of an atrocity committed by an agnostic. — Andrew4Handel
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.