Lavrov is just reiterating their ultimatum, i.e. it's not talks.
Meanwhile, Ukraine is looking at talks with UN as mediator.

Ukraine Wants Peace Summit At UN By End Of February
^{— RFE/RL · Dec 26, 2022}

Ukraine live briefing: Putin bans sale of Russian oil to countries involved in price cap; Kyiv seeks U.N. peace summit
^{— Kelsey Ables, Leo Sands, Sammy Westfall · Washington Post · Dec 27, 2022}

Putin + team is going to read the fineprint and opt out, is my guess, unless something changes.
Taking the reins would be pushing ahead with the proposal either way.

Russia's Lavrov: West and Ukraine Want to Destroy Russia ^{(via US News)
— Lidia Kelly, Michael Perry · Reuters · Dec 27, 2022}

Notice how Lavrov's rhetoric would apply the same if Russia was to assimilate those five oblasts.
Apparently they ignore that Russia will just have to make due without Ukraine (if Ukraine + supporters have their way)?
Russia without Ukraine is doomed for destruction...? Absurd. That would take quite a lot, though admittedly Putin ain't helping.

Further east ...

A Russian critic of Putin died after falling out of a hotel window in India
^{— Niharika Sharma · Quartz · Dec 27, 2022}

Hmm seems like a trend of sorts? Critique brings bad luck?

Russia bad

Not Russia. Putin.

I see your rings of power and raise you the Borg:

Correct: As reported by many sources, Russia’s abductions of Ukrainian children are a genocidal crime.

Perhaps you can provide a source that proves this reporting is fake news.

Wait, , didn't the thread already establish that "Everyone bad"?

May have been posted before (in which case I apologize). This Reuters article was just published.

Explainer: What is Zelenskiy's 10-point peace plan?
<sup>— Lidia Kelly, Michael Perry · Reuters · Dec 27, 2022

1. Radiation and nuclear safety, focusing on restoring safety around Europe's largest nuclear power plant, Zaporizhzhia in Ukraine, which is now-Russian occupied.
2. Food security, including protecting and ensuring Ukraine's grain exports to the world's poorest nations.
3. Energy security, with focus on price restrictions on Russian energy resources, as well as aiding Ukraine with restoring its power infrastructure, half of which has been damaged by Russian attacks.
4. Release of all prisoners and deportees, including war prisoners and children deported to Russia.
5. Restoring Ukraine's territorial integrity and Russia reaffirming it according [to] the U.N. Charter, which Zelenskiy said is "not up to negotiations".
6. Withdrawal of Russian troops and cessation of hostilities, restoration of Ukraine's state borders with Russia.
7. Justice, including the establishment of a special tribunal to prosecute Russian war crimes.
8. Ecocide, protection of environment, with focus on demining and restoring water treatment facilities.
9. Prevention of escalation of conflict, and building security architecture in the Euro-Atlantic space, including guarantees for Ukraine.
10. Confirmation of the war's end, including a document signed by the involved parties.</sup>

The article has a few more comments. Unlikely that Putin + team will accept this plan.

Peripherally, regarding 2/5...

Larger Wheat Harvest in Ukraine Than Expected
^{— NASA · Dec 4, 2022}

However, Russia will likely reap the benefit of a significant portion of the close to 27-million-ton wheat crop, said Skakun. The analysis showed that 5.8 million tons of wheat was harvested from areas that were not under Ukrainian control. That represents a loss of at least $1 billion, Abbassian noted.

Exclusive: Crimea showers Syria with wheat, Ukraine cries foul ^{(via US News)
— Jonathan Saul, Maha El Dahan, Maya Gebeily, Nigel Hunt, Pavel Polityuk, Frank Jack Daniel · Reuters · Dec 19, 2022}

Hmm... :chin:

No sources have proven Russia has kidnapped Ukrainian children or committed a genocidal crime in doing so. Shouldn't you provide the sources proving that

Russia has moved Russian-Ukrainian orphans out of the Donbass territories Ukraine has shelled and to the safety of Russia. But that is neither kidnapping nor genocide

Proof is going to be difficult to establish from Russian documentation and witnesses until after the war.

There are many reports of Ukrainian parents trying to get their kids back from deportation as seen here: Ukrainians struggle to find and reclaim children taken by Russia.

I read your version of the story at Tass but it is does not match reports from Kherson by medical professionals and their families working to prevent Russians from taking their orphans. Several paragraphs from one article:

But residents say even more children would have gone missing had it not been for the efforts of some in the community who risked their lives to hide as many children as they could.

At the hospital in Kherson, staff invented diseases for 11 abandoned babies under their care, so they wouldn't have to give them to the orphanage where they knew they'd be given Russian documents and potentially taken away. One baby had "pulmonary bleeding", another "uncontrollable convulsions" and another needed "artificial ventilation," said Pilyarska of the fake records.

But moving them around wasn't easy. After Russia occupied Kherson and much of the region in March, they started separating orphans at checkpoints, forcing Sahaidak to get creative about how to transport them. In one instance he faked records saying that a group of kids had received treatment in the hospital and were being taken by their aunt to be reunited with their mother who was nine months pregnant and waiting for them on the other side of the river, he said.

You can find similar reports from other occupied areas. While you work the search engines, I suggest looking into the career of Ombudsman Maria Lvova-Belova.

In any case, please point to sources beyond the Russian government-controlled media to tell a different story. It will make it more interesting.

, there has been a few independent reports, sort of consistently for a while now, but it's just about impossible to figure out under the current circumstances. Returning them is part of Zelenskyy's peace plan. Seems likely that children were taken, and also likely some of the claimed numbers were inflated. Anyway, kidnapping is usually considered a serious crime.

Child abductions in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
^{— Wikipedia · ongoing}

Putin’s Advocate for Child Welfare Is Straight-Up Stealing Kids in Ukraine, U.K. Says
^{— Allison Quinn · The Daily Beast · Jun 16, 2022}

Canada sanctions Russian ‘architect’ of Ukraine child abduction scheme
^{— The Associated Press via Global News · Aug 25, 2022}

Children of war
^{— Alina Rohach · New Eastern Europe · Sep 12, 2022}

the Russian Federation is preparing changes to the legislation that will allow the adoption of Ukrainian children using a simplified procedure

"Now, they are ours". Russia and child abduction, the evidence of trafficking.
^{— Jean-Marc Adolphe · les humanités · Sep 19, 2022}

Ukraine parents ‘want their children back’ from Russia
^{— Al Jazeera · Oct 7, 2022}

How Moscow grabs Ukrainian kids and makes them Russians
^{— Sarah El Deeb, Anastasiia Shvets, Elizaveta Tilna, Lori Hinnant, Cara Anna, Erika Kinetz · AP News · Oct 13, 2022}

Russia abducting Ukrainian children, putting up for adoption in Russia
^{— The Jerusalem Post · Oct 17, 2022}

How a Mariupol father survived a Russian POW camp and traveled to Moscow to save his kids
^{— Svetlana Martova, Sam Breazeale · Meduza · Nov 4, 2022}

Russia's forced deportation of Ukrainian children is genocide with identifiable perpetrators
^{— Halya Coynash · Kharkiv Human Rights Protection Group · Dec 9, 2022}

20 children abducted by the Russian Federation were returned to Ukraine: among them is the daughter of a servicewoman of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
^{— Khrystyna Velychanska, Julia Sokolova · Fakty ICTV · Dec 17, 2022}

Sorry, but if there was actual proof of Russia kidnapping kids, then there would be evidence from the Ukraine side and there isnt'. Without it, it makes no sense to make baseless accusations of kidnapping, much less genocide. As I said, Russia and the Donbass have admitted to moving orphans from places currently--and in the past--being shelled by Donbass; that is neither kidnapping nor genocide and is a good thing


In any case, Neither Maria Lvova-Bulova's biased claims or the others you report are backed up with any evidence at all. So, please point to sources beyond those biased, un-supported claims...even biased ones supported with evidence...as you haven't so far. It will make it more interesting

The Ukrainians' accounts do not count as any kind of evidence for you. What sort of verification of their experience would be meaningful for you?

While you acknowledge that the Russians have not provided any evidence for their account, you take it as the narrative to be proved otherwise. The Russians do admit that they adopt these children without proof of their origins.

Sorry, but if there was actual proof of Russia kidnapping kids, then there would be evidence from the Ukraine side and there isnt'. — Lambert Strether

Before claiming such absurd denials, why don't you go through piece by piece the for example the links that @jorndoe gave are baseless and untrue.

It's one thing to argue that the actions are "genocidal", just how common these actions are, it is totally another thing to claim there is no evidence at all of this as you are saying.

But of course you can argue that the only truthful media outlets is the Russian media (like Tass). I assume there you can find denials about the cases.

Sorry, SSU, but the only absurd denials here are your denials of my very accurate denials...and I did go through all of them piece by piece and correctly said none of @jorndoe's claims were backed up by evidence

And there is no evidence of any genocidal actions and you haven't shown any evidence showing my saying so is wrong

And I never said Tass was the only truthful media...that's an absurd claim

[reply="Paine; The Ukrainians' accounts do not count as any kind of evidence for you. What sort of verification of their experience would be meaningful for you?

While you acknowledge that the Russians have not provided any evidence for their account, you take it as the narrative to be proved otherwise. The Russians do admit that they adopt these children without proof of their origins.767384"]

No, accounts alone are not evidence; they need factual support which these accounts do not have. That's the verification that is needed. And I don't take any account without evidence. If someone claims Zelensky is a mass murderer, apparently you feel the denial of that claim needs as much evidence as the claim itself...it doesn't

And adopting orphans isn't kidnapping or genocide, particularly when they come from the Russian-ethnic Donbass. Sorry. Do you want those orphans to go without families?

Whatever verification you ask for from the Ukrainians should be required of the Russians whose account you refer to as factual. Your rhetorical question is a nice bit of agitprop.

LOL at "my very accurate denials". Not going to waste my time arguing with another freak, but here are a couple more links for general reference:

Human Rights Watch, "We Had No Choice": "Filtration" and the Crime of Forcibly Transferring Ukrainian Civilians to Russia, September 1, 2022.

Since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, Russian and Russian-affiliated officials have forcibly transferred Ukrainian civilians, including those fleeing hostilities, to areas of Ukraine occupied by Russia or to the Russian Federation, a serious violation of the laws of war amounting to a war crime and a potential crime against humanity.

The laws of armed conflict prohibit the forcible transfer and deportation of civilians from occupied territory, including children, and prohibit a party to the conflict from evacuating children who are not its own nationals to a foreign country without their parents’ or guardians’ written consent, except temporarily as needed for compelling health or safety reasons.

Amnesty International, Ukraine: Russia’s unlawful transfer of civilians a war crime and likely a crime against humanity, November 10, 2022.

Under international law, there are additional protections for children, people with disabilities and older people that are relevant to the situations of those who have been forcibly transferred or deported. International humanitarian law requires, in the process of an occupying power undertaking transfers or evacuations, as Russia has done in Ukraine, “that members of the same family are not separated”. As described in Chapters 3 and 4, Russian and Russian-controlled authorities have, at times, separated children from their parents, in breach of these obligations. Furthermore, the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the occupying power from changing the family or personal status, including nationality, of children.

Regarding adoptions of Ukrainian children in Russia, the CRC calls on states “to respect the right of the child to preserve his or her identity, including nationality, name and family relations as recognized by law without unlawful interference”. It outlines that any system of adoption “shall ensure that the best interests of the child shall be paramount” and that the adoption is authorized by competent authorities who determine the adoption is permissible and, if required, the persons concerned have given their informed consent. It also states that intercountry adoption may be considered an alternative means of care “if the child cannot be placed in a foster or adoptive family or cannot in any suitable manner be cared for in the child’s country of origin”. For children deprived of their family environment, the CRC calls for “due regard... [to] be paid to the desirability of continuity in a child’s upbringing and the child’s ethnic, religious, cultural, and linguistic background.”

In violation of these legal obligations and Ukraine’s moratorium on intercountry adoptions, Russian and Russian-controlled authorities in the DNR and LNR have transferred Ukrainian children to Russia and facilitated the permanent adoption of some Ukrainian children by Russian families, depriving them of the opportunity to grow up and receive care in their country of origin. Moreover, in the chaos of war and in the absence of formal relations between Ukraine and Russia, unaccompanied and separated Ukrainian children risk being identified as orphans available for adoption when they are not, possibly preventing reunification with blood relations and guardians.

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

I did go through all of them piece by piece and correctly said none of jorndoe's claims were backed up by evidence — Lambert Strether

Hilarious. First, you haven't said anything to show in your 8 remarks on this Forum, and one day being here.

If there's no evidence, then according to you, out of thin air Canada sanctions "Maria Lvova-Belova, Russia’s children’s rights commissioner, who has been accused by Ukraine of organizing the removal of children from the Luhansk and Donetsk regions".

Or since you think there's no evidence, how about the UN? How do they come to the following conclusion months ago:

UNITED NATIONS

There are “credible allegations of forced transfers of unaccompanied,” Ukrainian children to Russia and Russia-held territories in Ukraine, the UN said Wednesday.

Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ilze Brands expressed concern in her briefing to the Security Council about Russia’s move to grant citizenship to Ukrainian children without parental care which would lead to adoption by Russian families.

The Russian Federation is prohibited from changing the personal status of the children, including nationality, under the Fourth Geneva Convention, she said.

''We are particularly concerned that the announced plans of the Russian authorities to allow the movement of children from Ukraine to families in the Russian Federation do not appear to include steps for family reunification or in other ways ensure respect for the principle of the best interests of the child,'' she said.

see here

But seems like the UN or Amnesty International, as @SophistiCat mentioned, seem to be just promoting fictional anti-Russian propaganda. Or then we can look just what you have contributed here.

Pure classic trolling from you.

On location reporting of the actual fighting on the front lines. Read it and weep for the ongoing tragedy.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/02/trapped-in-the-trenches-in-ukraine

The Russians are not required to disprove an accusation, particularly one without evidence

"Hilarious. First, you haven't said anything to show in your 8 remarks on this Forum, and one day being here.

If there's no evidence, then according to you, out of thin air Canada sanctions "Maria Lvova-Belova, Russia’s children’s rights commissioner, who has been accused by Ukraine of organizing the removal of children from the Luhansk and Donetsk regions".

Or since you think there's no evidence, how about the UN coming to the following conclusion months ago"


LOL, what is hilarious is your thinking I haven't said anything to show when that actually describes you. And sanctions and conclusions aren't proof of Russian malfeasance, just proof of Canadian and Ukrainian bias and opinion against Russia....all without support. And yes, since those groups you mention provide no evidence, they are just pushing propaganda....like others false claims Russia blew up the Nordstream or Ukraine's Azov batallions aren't Nazis

So, the only classic trolling has been yours

"LOL at "my very accurate denials". Not going to waste my time arguing with another freak, but here are a couple more links for general reference:"


Uh-oh, someone's getting upset....and I am certainly not the "freak" in this discussion. None of those passages you provided showed any proof of any kidnapping or genocidal activity, and Human Rights Watch has close ties to the American defense industry

Nice try

"Whatever verification you ask for from the Ukrainians should be required of the Russians whose account you refer to as factual. Your rhetorical question is a nice bit of agitprop.""


Wrong. The accuser is required to support the claim, not the accuser. Using your bad logic, if someone accused you of being a murderer, you would be required to prove you are not or go to jail. So, the nice bit of agitprop is all yours

What you have not provided support for is your statement:

Russia has moved Russian-Ukrainian orphans out of the Donbass territories Ukraine has shelled and to the safety of Russia. But that is neither kidnapping nor genocide — Lambert Strether

You haven't provided support for any of your statements

, ye olde Nazi thing has been discussed already, keep up, e.g. comments 765405, 765255, 757789, ...

adopting orphans isn't kidnapping or genocide — Lambert Strether

Any Ukrainian children that has been taken to Russia, shipped off by/to someone they don't know, will have to be documented in sufficient detail and publicly, especially so that remaining family/guardians can find them. So far, Russian kidnapp...err authorities haven't provided much. Some Ukrainian parents/families have nonetheless managed to find their children — already documented in posted reports — examples.

, support yes (a fair amount at that), deductive proof no (if that's what you're looking for). If you just dismiss what's been reported with a casual handwave, then you haven't contributed anything here, which might be why some have used the t word.

Anyway, personally I'm not inclined to repeat yet again. (In particular not to someone that waltzes in and repeats/parrots old cruft yet again.) :) Have a good New Year. :up:

But seems like the UN or Amnesty International, as SophistiCat mentioned, seem to be just promoting fictional anti-Russian propaganda. — ssu

It is turned into anti-Russian propaganda when people start referring to "deportations" and "genocides", trying to draw not-so-subtle historical parallels.

"Any Ukrainian children that has been taken to Russia, shipped off by/to someone they don't know, will have to be documented in sufficient detail and publicly, especially so that remaining family/guardians can find them. So far, Russian kidnapp...err authorities haven't provided much. Some Ukrainian parents/families have nonetheless managed to find their children — already documented in posted reports — examples."


You have no idea Russia hasn't done these things. They're in a war, remember...neither country is freely exchanging information....and your own "evidence" supports the fact these children aren't being genocided. Kidnapping, indeed :roll:


"Support yes (a fair amount at that), deductive proof no (if that's what you're looking for). If you just dismiss what's been reported with a casual handwave, then you haven't contributed anything here, which might be why some have used the t word."


Sorry, but unfounded stories and anecdotes---even a fair amount--are neither support nor deductive proof. So, I dismissed nothing as nothing supportive was provided. You're the one dismissing that fact with a casual handwave so the t word better applies to you and your friends

↪Lambert Strether, ye olde Nazi thing has been discussed already, keep up, e.g. comments 765405, 765255, 757789, ...


I just joined the forum, so I can hardly keep up with what has been discussed before me. You, however, are clearly unable to counter what I said about Ukraine's cultural Nazi problem and Nazi problem in its military

Either way, have a happy New Year :grin:

are neither support nor deductive proof — Lambert Strether

Yep, they're support. Not deductive proof, but support, yep. Not sure why you'd contradict that. Oh well.

Nazi — Lambert Strether

As far as the invasion goes, the concern (at least that I've commented on lately) is what Kyiv possibly could have done, is doing, to be deemed a Nazi rule — a Nazi rule is what the Putinistas have claimed, their public rationale, and it's bunk. — Dec 20, 2022 (765405)

Anyway, several references quotes observations whatever have already been posted in ↑ that regard. There's also a bit irony in that, given the claimants. :D

Neither Maria Lvova-Bulova's biased claims or [...] — Lambert Strether

What claims are they again...?

your denials of my very accurate denials — Lambert Strether

that actually describes you — Lambert Strether

has been yours — Lambert Strether

You're the one — Lambert Strether

You, however, — Lambert Strether

Tu quoque'ish.

ties to the American defense industry — Lambert Strether

Isn't that what we call a poisoning the well fallacy, this being a philosophy forum an'all?