Bartricks is bang on target. God created heaven (that makes sense), but then earth with widespread evil, I think earth just fell out of heaven or rose up from hell. That makes sense. To Bartricks things havta make sense; everything else is just a pair of hairy bollocks! :grin:

Si comprhenedis non est Deus.

Personally I was never able to believe in god/s, even as a child. I've never had a sensus divinitatis and the idea of theism was never coherent to me. I only got interested in the arguments used to prove or disprove god because the apologists thought reason could be aggressively mustered in their defence. — Tom Storm

I may still be in the church with a leader like John Shelby Spong. I struggled with superstitious fears when I was young and this became an extremely serious part of my life when I was in my early 30's. That is an age of transition and for some of us, it is a very difficult time. I had to make a choice, either I was possessed by the devil or all those boogieman stories of the devil and demons were false beliefs and in reality, I am 100% responsible for what I do. I am very glad I decided those superstitious ideas were false. However, at that time Satanism became very popular and some years later, my daughter had a friend who went to prison with another friend for their satanic killing of one of the girls. And I have seen other people suffering because of false beliefs. I am not so sure freedom of religion is 100% a good thing. Religion and ignorance can be a terrible mix.

That is not the only problem I see with religion. Our education and justice systems are very seriously hindered by religious notions and this is a serious problem for a democracy.

Our lives are unique, we will disassemble and become 'spare parts' again. — universeness

LOL, I am a registered organ donor, but for that to work, one must die in the hospital and that is not something we can always arrange. Hit me with a truck and make my brain dead and get me to the hospital while my blood is still circulating so my organs can live on in other people. Or I consider my mitochondria that has given me life and dying someplace where the birds and other creatures might consume my mitochondria and give it life.

I think it is sad that we all do not have a sense of oneness with the universe. Those who fear the eternal publishment of a god are the most sad. What can separate us from the universe other than our own ego? If we are willing to surrender our ego then what is left but the universe?

However, I come with western individualism and a mandate to have a meaningful life and that comes with ego. I think that might be a good thing for while we are here. For me, it is a lot more fun than thinking my life does not matter.

I think reincarnation is a possibility and I would choose a different life experience than the one I have had because if there is an "I" it would be nice for it to have many experiences and expand its consciousness and hopefully make it more useful. But if I just quietly become one with the universe that is okay. There will be no "I" to be unhappy about that. Is that line of reasoning logical?

BUT, In this sense, we are all part of each other. — universeness

So true. We are very much shaped by our time in history. I love to think of myself as a hippy. My mother sang for USO shows and was the ideal pinup girl. My grandmother devoted her life to defending democracy in the classroom from the first world war and through the second one. I carry my mother and grandmother with me.

Oh, oh have you heard the saying that when we meet someone we come a little part of that person's life and that person becomes a little part of us?

I find great personal contentment in that. My life has purpose, meaning, value and a spectacular sensation of wonderment. I want to contribute to secular, humanist, socialist, democratic progress in everyway I can, as long as I live. — universeness

Totally :heart: we are part of something bigger than ourselves. We need to spread this as religions are spread. I think we can succeed if we bring back the consciousness of the Enlightenment and Athens. For sure Athens was not ideal in all ways but it opened the door to our greater human potential when it gave life to Apollo, the concept of reason.

And the pupil shouldn't advise the teacher. — Bartricks

Aristotle argued with his teacher Plato and both have strongly influenced our consciousness. Who would want to stop our intellectual growth with Socrates, Plato's teacher, or Platto, or even stop with Aristotle? Aristotle was not 100% right and his notion that the universe circles the earth was wrong and without Nicolaus Copernicus, and then Bacon turning Aristotle's reasoning upside, we would not have the modern world we have today and this reality is much more capable of the meeting the needs of a huge world population than the authority of old.

The Athenians' difference is one of reasoning and questioning and even arguing with the teacher, the authority. Our mandate is to learn and question and argue, always searching for the best reasoning, rather than be submissive to authority that stops progress. That is the east and west divide.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he (or I assume she) lay down his (or I assume her or even somewhere in between.) life for his/her/hesh friends.

LOL, I am a registered organ donor, but for that to work, one must die in the hospital and that is not something we can always arrange. Hit me with a truck and make my brain dead and get me to the hospital while my blood is still circulating so my organs can live on in other people. Or I consider my mitochondria that has given me life and dying someplace where the birds and other creatures might consume my mitochondria and give it life. — Athena

What more can one ask for? Individual human morality can invoke as high a standard as anything suggested in the bible.

I struggled with superstitious fears when I was young and this became an extremely serious part of my life when I was in my early 30's. — Athena

I am very glad I decided those superstitious ideas were false. — Athena

:clap: You smashed it, you saw through the bullshit, you denied the demons they tried to convince you existed and you called their bluff. Satan, God, Jinn, Demons, Angels, Hell, are all powerless fantasies.
I challenge all of them, to affect me. I exist! so I am much more powerful than any of them. Only objects in the material/physical universe can affect me.

Satanism became very popular and some years later, my daughter had a friend who went to prison with another friend for their satanic killing of one of the girls. — Athena

The evil that people are capable of is terrifying. The human mind can become very sick indeed, we need to find better preventions and cures, as praying just does not work.

I think it is sad that we all do not have a sense of oneness with the universe. — Athena

There is no question that you, me and every other person is part of the universe. It is my 'universeness.' Most of what you are made of is a result of supernova explosions. The death of stars meant that you could become.
How spectacular is that? I am made of starstuff not godstuff! Yeehaaaaa!

What other explanation can there be? — Athena

You think the only possible explanation for the external world is God?!?

Why on earth would you think that?

And second, you also think - incoherently - that God does not exist.

So, er, you think the external world doesn't exist? Or do you not see the contradiction in your beliefs?

I'm happy for you: you have a true belief.

:100: :strong:

:rofl:

I'm happy for you: you have a true belief. — Bartricks

:lol: Finally, something! :joke:

:lol: Finally, something! — Agent Smith

Yeah, Well done! You made Bar tricks say something nice about you!

Yeah, Well done! You made Bar tricks say something nice about you! — universeness

Bartricks says really interesting stuff. He cuts through the noise to get at the signal. I only hope there's a signal waiting out there for him. Good luck Bartricks.

He cuts through the noise to get at the signal — Agent Smith

:grin: Wheras, I think Bar tricks helps make most of the noise! But I am glad he has some fans!

Bartricks' noise is our signal, Don't you get it? :rofl:

Sure, I get it. I like to attend the mad hatters tea party sometimes.
How can you appreciate sense if you cant play with nonsense.

:up:

You think the only possible explanation for the external world is God?!?

Why on earth would you think that?

And second, you also think - incoherently - that God does not exist.

So, er, you think the external world doesn't exist? Or do you not see the contradiction in your beliefs? — Bartricks

What is God? What is the external world? I believe the universe exists. I think I believe energy continues to flow from the center of the universe but I have not gotten enough information to have confidence in what I think.

I do have confidence that the Bible is written by people and to me, its explanation of God is not believable.

Cleary you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You have said that you do not believe in God.

You have also said that you do not think that there could be any other explanation for the world apart from God.

So, you believe a contradiction. That's dumb. That is, you believe something - the world - exists and that it could only possibly exist if God exists, but you believe God does not exist. Jeez. Join. The. Dots.

Cleary you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You have said that you do not believe in God.

You have also said that you do not think that there could be any other explanation for the world apart from God.

So, you believe a contradiction. That's dumb. That is, you believe something - the world - exists and that it could only possibly exist if God exists, but you believe God does not exist. Jeez. Join. The. Dots. — Bartricks

Excuse me. You do not know Athena do you.

Athena's personality is a very dualistic one. At times she exhibits a very masculine aura; at others, she is the vision of feminine loveliness. Her attitiude changes almost daily, depending on certain situations. She uses her wisdom to decide how she should react in a situation. Athena's duties are where she has earned her fame. Weaving and warfare are the areas where she excels above all others, except in the case of poor Arachne. As the goddess of wisdom, Athena displays her wisdom through various ways, especially in war, thinking out carefully who should win and then aiding them. But she is often confusing in how she can change her mind half way through, a characteristic that she is female. In all of these ways; her personality, duties, and wisdom, spread through endless tales, Athena became a three-dimensional character, forever changing as humans still do today. — Laurie Parrish, Lynette Delp, Alex Klinkhardt, Stephanie Palmer

It is not a good idea to piss off any of the gods, and certainly not a good idea to piss Athena off. Now do you want to talk about ignorance? Being disrespectful as you were in your opening line, is an obvious sign of ignorance. Do you want to try again, or should we just ignore each other?

If your god is believable or not is up for question. However, there could be no manifest reality without logos.

But I don't believe God created the world we live in. It doesn't look like the kind of place an all-good person would create. But Christians typically do believe that God created the world. Why? — Bartricks

Ok, I'll play God's advocate: God created this world because he couldn't have done differently. Not creating this world would be logically inconsistent because he would not have created the world he has created.

God created this world because he couldn't have done differently. — litewave

Then he wouldn't be omnipotent. God is by definition omnipotent. So God can do anything. That includes refraining from creating a world.

Not creating this world would be logically inconsistent — litewave

That's flagrantly question begging. I've explained that it isn't inconsistent. An omnipotent person can do anything - so that means they do not 'have' to do anything. Thus, there is nothing in the idea of omnipotence that commits one to believing that an omnipotent being created everything. There can be an omnipotent person, and there can be a ton of other stuff, and the omnipotent person can have created none of it. If you think that, logically, omnipotence involves creating this world, then you need to provide an argument.

It gets worse, not only does omnipotence not positively imply that God created the world, omnibenevolence positively implies God did not create it.

Then he wouldn't be omnipotent. God is by definition omnipotent. So God can do anything. That includes refraining from creating a world. — Bartricks

But even an omnipotent being can't create a logically inconsistent object because such an object cannot exist, for example a square circle.

That's flagrantly question begging. — Bartricks

Reality must be logically consistent, which means that it cannot be what it is not. God's action is a part of reality, which means that God's action cannot be what it is not, and so if God creates a world he cannot not create it.

It gets worse, not only does omnipotence not positively imply that God created the world, omnibenevolence positively implies God did not create it. — Bartricks

Then God creates the best worlds that are logically possible (consistent).

But even an omnipotent being can't create a logically inconsistent object because such an object cannot exist, for example a square circle. — litewave

Yes they can. They can do anything, including things that violate the laws of logic.

Anyway, it's beside the point, for it is clearly not a violation of the laws of logic to refrain from creating something. I, right now, am refraining from doing lots of things. I am not thereby violating the laws of logic. Similarly, God can refrain from creating anything. Thus, nothing in the idea of God entails that God has created the world. That's true whether one understands omnipotence correctly as the ability to do anything whatsoever, or incorrectly, as the ability to do that which is logically possible.

Reality must be logically consistent, which means that it cannot be what it is not. God's action is a part of reality, which means that God's action cannot be what it is not, and so if God creates a world he cannot not create it. — litewave

That's not an argument. You've just said 'reality must be consistent......therefore God has created the world'. How on earth does that follow? Peas are legumes. Therefore God created peas. It doesn't make sense.

Then God creates the best worlds that are logically possible (consistent). — litewave

You're not following. 'If' God created a world, then he would create the best world. This isn't the best world, is it?! Therefore, God did not create it.

Yes they can. They can do anything, including things that violate the laws of logic. — Bartricks

There can't be such things. If there were, there wouldn't be.

Anyway, it's beside the point, for it is clearly not a violation of the laws of logic to refrain from creating something. — Bartricks

Right, but sometimes it would be. It is not a violation of the laws of logic for a circle to exist, but it would be a violation of the laws of logic if the circle existed in a set of triangles. Similarly, it would be a violation of the laws of logic if you refrained from doing something in a world where you don't refrain from doing it.

You've just said 'reality must be consistent......therefore God has created the world' — Bartricks

No, I didn't.

'If' God created a world, then he would create the best world. This isn't the best world, is it?! — Bartricks

I don't know. But maybe an omnibenevolent God would create top 10 best worlds and this is one of them?

There can't be such things. If there were, there wouldn't be. — litewave

If God exists, there can be. I've already explained why. If someone is omnipotent, they're able to do anything. If there was something they couldn't do, they wouldn't be omnipotent. So, ironically, you're the one with the logically incoherent view: you think an omnipotent person can exist and be unable to do some things. That's a contradiction. A person who can do anything exists and can't do some things. That's what you're saying. That's actually incoherent.

What I am saying is that God exists and can do anything and that he hasn't created the world.

No, I didn't. — litewave

You said if God created the world, then God created the world. Er, yes. And?

The issue is whether God created the world. Saying 'if he did, he did' is a pointless platitude that doesn't address the issue.

I don't know. But maybe an omnibenevolent God would create top 10 best worlds and this is one of them? — litewave

Again, you don't seem to understand what the issue is.

If God exists, God did not create the world. Now, try and focus on the issue.

If someone is omnipotent, they're able to do anything. If there was something they couldn't do, they wouldn't be omnipotent. — Bartricks

But a square circle is not really something. It is nothing. In mathematics it is the content of empty set.

You said if God created the world, then God created the world. Er, yes. And? — Bartricks

It's a consistent proposition. You suggest that an inconsistent proposition can be true: "If God created the world, then God didn't create the world." The point is: God's actions are parts of reality and reality must be logically consistent, which means identical to itself. If the action of God's creation of this world is a part of reality then it is so necessarily because otherwise reality would not be identical to itself. Everything that happens in reality, happens necessarily. God's free will is at best compatibilist because no other free will is coherent.

Again, you don't seem to understand what the issue is. — Bartricks

You said that this is not the best possible world. I say that even if this is not the best possible world, it may still have been created by an omnibenevolent God. Because an omnibenevolent God may have created the 10 best possible worlds and our world may be one of them. But who knows, maybe our world is the best possible one, who are we to say it isn't? How do you define the best possible world? I would imagine it's a world that somehow maximizes happiness across the whole spacetime, and so suffering at some time may enable more happiness at another time.

But a square circle is not really something. It is nothing. In mathematics it is the content of empty set. — litewave

It's not nothing - it's a square circle. It'd be a thing if it existed. God is not bound by logic, for God is its creator. But anyway, you're still missing the point as 'refraining from creating a place such as this' is not something forbidden by logic.

So, I am saying that God has not done X. And what you are doing is claiming - falsely and irrelevantly - that God cannot do Y. No, God can do Y. But the issue is whether God has done X.

Now, has God created this world? No. Is that logically consistent? Yes. You've so far said nothing to show it not to be.

Your 'argument' otherwise keeps changing. You have said that anything God does he does in reality. Er, yes. So?

I didn't just make a painting. Ok? A painting was just made. But I didn't make it.

In this analogy I am God and the painting is the world we're living (don't respond 'but the world isn't a painting - that'd be thicker than a thick thing on thick day. So don't. Needless to say 99% of the people on this site would respond in that manner).

So, something happened - a painting was made - but I didn't make it.

Do I have the power to make a painting? Yes. But I didn't exercise it.

Your response? "But anything Bartricks does, Bartricks does in reality".

Er, yes. I know. But I didn't make the painting that exists. I could have done. But I didn't.

Your response?

"But if Bartricks creates something, he creates the best".

Er, yes, I know. But I didn't create the painting.

"But if Bartricks creates something, he might create 10 of the best".

Yes, I might. But I didn't create the painting. Why are you having trouble understanding what I am saying? I didn't create the painting. This painting: this one. I didn't create it.

Everything that happens in reality, happens necessarily. God's free will is at best compatibilist because no other free will is coherent. — litewave

That's just some random claims strung together. It doesn't engage with anything i have argued . You're just saying stuff.

:lol: So god could have created this world or/and this universe, if it wanted to, but it didn't.
It's existence or nonexistence has no importance to us then, we should focus on trying to find out how this world and this universe was created, and ignore questions about who or what did not create it.