Ironically, The Hebrew religion was materialistic, morally pragmatic, and this-worldly (no afterlife), so their explanations for existence & evolution were mostly naturalistic, except for the creation of something from nothing. However, the Christian religion was spiritualized, not by Jesus (human messiah), but by Paul, who preached the divine Christ myth to the Gentiles. I suspect that most ancient religions were likewise materialistic, except for their invisible Nature gods, who performed the natural functions that we now assign to invisible Energy. But Christians look forward to salvation from the bonds of Materialism. Even mostly naturalistic Buddhism anticipates a sort of impersonal salvation in non-self Nirvana.interesting. I would say it's the other way around - materialistic religion (most instantiations of religion) and spiritualistic science (how science is generally understood) are in direct competition as explanations of life on earth, not to mention the compass by which we navigate values and meaning. The naturalistic fallacy isn't much of an impediment to most practical people, who look to science as an effective path to understand reality, while religion ( often a series of fallacies in search of purpose) diminishes in importance, except amongst the fanatics who view religion as a set of vulgar terrestrial commands. — Tom Storm
I've answered all your questions already. That's enough — Gregory
I never said we weren't part of it. I correctly said we are only a part of it and an infinitesimal part of it with barely a trillionth of a speck of influence on it — Lambert Strether
I'm confident you won't agree but, IME, as a passion, or existential commitment, "hope" (i.e. magical / wishful / group thinking ~ make believe) is so much easier than courage (i.e. defiantly joyful living) in the face of adversity (facticity). Disbelief is, and has always been, defiant and never easy conformity like "belief in gods/God". After all, it's the crutch of religion that, in the medium-to- long-term, cripples "the human spirit" (i.e. catastrophizes our histories), even as its homilies pacify our near-term anxieties. To put away childish things for good once childhood ends, Gregory, takes (metaphysical) courage. :fire:
(NB: "Religious martyrs", by most sympathetic accounts, have always exhibited many acute symptoms of psychosis and are much more compulsively delusional than hopeful or courageous.) — 180 Proof
Lawrence Krauss however said he would rather not exist if God were real. — Gregory
I'm confident you won't agree but, IME, as a passion, or existential commitment, "hope" (i.e. magical / wishful / group thinking ~ make believe) is so much easier than courage (i.e. defiantly joyful living) in the face of adversity (facticity). Disbelief is, and has always been, defiant and never easy conformity like "belief in gods/God". After all, it's the crutch of religion that, in the medium-to- long-term, cripples "the human spirit" (i.e. catastrophizes our histories), even as its homilies pacify our near-term anxieties. To put away childish things for good once childhood ends, Gregory, takes (metaphysical) courage — 180 Proof
What you describe as “The abject failure of Christianity to break into India, expand, and continue Eastward” can be explained by comparison with the spectacular expansion of Western science throughout the world. Science offers objective truth; religion offers comforting fictions — Art48
As far as I know, the special kind of order (Life & Mind) we humans experience on Earth is rare in the universe. But my personal concern is local, so I don't worry about the order, or lack thereof, in the un-inhabitable areas of the cosmos. Nevertheless, like the ancient Greeks and modern Einstein, I do marvel at the beautifully organized structure of the universe. Beautiful, compared to what? To mess, chaos, confusion, squalor, disorder, disarray, clutter, etc. To the effects of Entropy.Jokes aside, I'd say there is order, but it's local and temporary; chaos, on the other hand, is both global and permanent and increasing, exponentially. Stars, our only hope, burn for billions of years, but they die eventually.
What chance does Enformy have against Entropy - it's a losin' battle and therein lies the rub, eh mi amigo? — Agent Smith
I am currently reading the 2012 book by historian James D. Tabor, Paul & Jesus : How the Apostle transformed Christianity. The author presents his interpretation of Christianity as the religion of Paul instead of Jesus. Many years ago, I came to the same conclusion. The inspiring story that Jesus preached was itself a metanarrative*1 of second temple Judaism, as interpreted by the apocalyptic monks we know as the Essenes. But Paul basically spiritualized their worldly anticipation of the Kingdom of God, by transferring it to a heavenly dominion, instead of a return to the golden age of Solomon's reign. For those living under the exploitative oppression of Rome, even a retro-action could be viewed as progressive*2.I spent quite a few years in the company of theosophists, Buddhists, Gnostics, and assorted New Age devotees. What struck me was the complete lack of transformational power their beliefs had for them. They were as anxious, ambitious, jealous, substance dependent and vulgarly materialistic as any group of hedge fund managers. It's a rare person who can escape the need for metanarratives as a bulwark against fears of anonymity and meaninglessness. Perhaps the belief in the progress of science is a secular variant, but at least it pays off now and again. :wink: — Tom Storm
Understood. I disbelieve in "God" because it's nothing but "a beautiful idea" (like utopia ... paradise ... heaven ...) :death: :flower:I believe in God because it is a beautiful idea. — Gregory
Contrary to the pseudo-"philosophical perspective" above: as the universe develops from minimum disorder to maximum disorder on a (non-constant) gradient, any 'order' is a temporary, dissipative phase-state of disorder. The asymmetric direction of cosmological development does not indicate a "purpose" any more than an avalanche down a mountainside indicates its "purpose". To quote a Nobel laureate theoretical physicist:From a philosophical perspective though, my interest is universal & cosmic. And modern Cosmology has confirmed the intuition of the ancients, that the Cosmos is distinguished from Chaos in that it is precisely enformed : apparently structured to serve some overall purpose. I don't know what that ultimate goal might be, but the physics of the universe seems to be finely tuned to distinguish organization (Enformy) from dis-organization (Entropy). — Gnomon
Another esteemed, particle physicist and philosopher Victor J Stenger dismisses teleological pseudo-science like "Enformationism"...The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless. — Steven Weinberg
The universe is not fine-tuned to us; we are fine-tuned to our particular universe. — The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning (2011)
We have yet to encounter an observable astronomical phenomenon that requires a supernatural element to be added to a model in order to describe the event...Observations in cosmology look just as they can be expected to look if there is no God. — God: The Failed Hypothesis (2007)
The book referenced is a history book, not a religious treatise. Do you feel that the details of history "don't much matter"? Maybe you missed the intended point of the post in the midst of indirect contextual commentary*1. What I was getting around to though, is a response to your implied parallel between religious & scientific belief in Progress*2. Since Science inspires hope for Physical progress in controlling Nature, it has something in common with religions that preach reasons for hoping that Ethical progress -- to control human nature -- will follow from socio-cultural change.I’m not a theorist or system builder. You can find anything you want about the 'true' story of Islam or Christianity, etc, in a myriad of (often contradictory) books. These publishing phenomena are tendentious and mainly driven by commercial or ideological interests and for the most part don’t interest me. I have no need for the a god or messiah hypothesis however it is expressed. When it comes to the Jesus myth, it was clearly inflicted upon the world by the Roman Empire and enforced as an institutional truth by society for centuries. The specific details of the myth's development and its evolution don’t much matter. — Tom Storm
The book referenced is a history book, not a religious treatise. Do you feel that the details of history "don't much matter"? — Gnomon
We evaluate scientific progress by the leverage it gives humanity over the impartial forces of Nature, turning them to our own advantage. But putting such power in the hands of ethically-challenged humans can easily turn pro-gress into re-gress. For example, the Manhattan Project scientists, who gave us the tools to exploit nuclear power, later began to regret their role in unleashing such fraught forces upon a world lacking the necessary moral code to control god-like power*3. — Gnomon
I apologize for bothering you with my personal interest in the "details" of a myth that was the foundation of my worldview in my youth. Although I no longer believe the myth, I am not hostile to current believers, including my own family. Instead, I understand how compelling such a fundamental narrative can be to those faced with a puzzling and sometimes threatening world. :smile:I thought I was clear - I am not much interested in people's pet theories about how this particular messiah myth was tweaked/distorted over time. — Tom Storm
What "draws" people against religious philosophies, that have no power to enslave their holders in a particular authoritarian system? Since you have become the designated go-between for the vs Gnomon controversy, I'll take this opportunity to respond to his latest polemical diatribe without actually engaging in dialog. You seem to think that the BothAnd philosophy requires such intercommunication, but I prefer not to get involved in political squabbles.What draws people to religion? Is it just a verbal pledge of a safety net to catch a believer's fall? Religions tend to be factually barren and yet, people by the millions end up believing in one god or another and even diehard atheists sometimes admit to having doubts about their own beliefs or lack thereof. Scientists like Albert Einstein were deists; perhaps deism is nothing more than the dying embers of theism, the last gasp of breath one sucks in as one passes on. — Agent Smith
I apologize for bothering you with my personal interest in the "details" of a myth that was the foundation of my worldview in my youth. — Gnomon
So, by this concept, nature – the universe / multiverse – is merely the physical aspect of a greater, non-physical entity (deity, creator, process) aka "Enformer" ... and yet, Gnomon, there is not any evidence for or sound argument demonstrating that in order for nature to be intelligible, and explicable, nature requires a non-physical entity ("Enformer") of which to be a part. I do not discern any substantive differences between (neo-Aristotlean) "Enformationism" and (neo'-Thomistic) "Intelligent Design", but I remain open to being persuaded to reconsider this unfavorable comparison.My position [Enformationism, BothAnd, Meta-Physics] is a kind of Deism, specifically PanEnDeism. — Gnomon
No. I typically apologize when my "exploring elaborate explanations " pushes someone's buttons, and they take offense. That's not "passive aggressive" but merely respectful politeness that is necessary to maintain calm rational dialog on a controversial forum.This sounds a little passive aggressive - did you intend it this way? — Tom Storm
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