Criticism of US foreign policy isn't "pro-Putin". — boethius
Criticism of US foreign policy isn't "pro-Putin". — boethius
Sure. Yet, so far, you just happened to offer recommendations in support of all Russian "legitimate grievances" and deal-breaker demands perfectly in line with Russian propaganda's recommendations (practically, copy and paste). Now you wanna teach me that Russian propaganda is not pro-Putin, yes? — neomac
You can not serve 2 masters: you will love the one and hate the other. Clearly, you serve US interests in this conversation. — boethius
This is an improvement from when you did not see any kind of Ukrainian identity as being germane to what is happening. — Paine
The way you present it as an elective is odd. That would be more a reflection of intent if Ukraine was trying to invade Russia. — Paine
The numbers that are emerging on the scale of alleged detentions and torture, “point to widespread and grave criminality in Russian-occupied territory,” said British lawyer Nigel Povoas, lead prosecutor with a Western-backed team of legal specialists assisting Kyiv’s efforts to prosecute war crimes.
Povoas said there appears to have been a pattern to inflict terror and suffering across Ukraine, which reinforces “the impression of a wider, criminal policy, emanating from the leadership” to target the country’s civilian population. — Reuters
The idea that 'Ukrainians' are all fighting for the same reason is, again, patent nonsense.
As such, we cannot possibly 'take into account' their agency — Isaac
Picking up details and individuals, or the fact that the countries were colonial powers, doesn't make us to recall the fact that UK and France went actually to war with Germany.I mean afterwards. When WWII ended. Nobody cared about Poland, Hungary, Czech, etc...
France and UK declared the war, yes. But we should recall some facts: the British royal family's connection with Nazis (The Duke and Duchess of Windsor were sympathetic to Nazi Germany)
The resistance of Charles de Gaulle fighting against the Nazis, while France controlled (and continued to control...) all African possessions. — javi2541997
And one if not the most important interest is their own security, their survival. Russia has had wars now with two of it's neighboring countries, has forces in all that aren't in NATO (or applying to) except China. If it would be just that, it would be one thing. But it isn't. The basic insecurity arises from that Russia makes territorial claims and has annexed parts from other countries and has made it clear by the words of Putin that it doesn't respect Ukraine's sovereignty, but sees it as an artificial construct.What I want to mean: hypocrisy. The states and organisations only act when they see it is worthy for their own interests and I don't understand why the Western world is caring that much about Ukraine. I feel I am not seeing something. — javi2541997
hypocrisy. The states and organisations only act when they see it is worthy for their own interests — javi2541997
The reason why so many in this discussion cannot seem to get their heads around viewing this in any other grouping than by nationality. As if Zelensky (net worth $20 million), Putin (net worth $70 Billion), and Biden (net worth $9 Million) were not all in the same group, and far more separate from the working classes of Russia, Ukraine and America who each have far more in common with each other than with any of their ruling classes.
As if a flag carried more significance than being able to afford a roof, food, or medical care. — Isaac
I'm simply saying that, in a conscripted army, motivations to fight are even more diverse than in a free one. Even in a regular army people's reasons might range all the way from borderline psychopathy to heroic selflessness. Most common seems to be nationalism. In a conscripted army, you can add to that range the fear of reprisals for refusal. — Isaac
As such, we cannot possibly 'take into account' their agency. They are not an agent, they are hundreds of thousands of separate agents with separate goals, taking them into account is nigh on impossible. It's certainly not something to be done by clinging slavishly to the account of their agency given by parties with a strong vested interest in presenting it a certain way. — Isaac
Of course Ukraine does not have its own history, language and culture. It's an arbitrary line on a map, it's absurd to think it somehow contains a natural grouping of language, history and culture. — Isaac
Ukraine isn't going back to Moscow and Catalonia isn't leaving Madrid. — BC
The matter of agency is whether the common response to being invaded has been to fight back. The issue has come up here in the context of those saying that such a response is insignificant because the people fighting are only ciphers in a proxy war. — Paine
Your observation about personal reasons is an equivocation between different ideas. If there had been no willingness to fight back, siding with Ukraine would have been merely a feeling of regret rather than a life-or-death attempt to repel invaders. — Paine
REALLY???Europe isn't worried about their security. — Tzeentch
And that obviously would have continued if Russia hadn't annexed Crimea and started this war in 2014. And NATO would have been happy in it's new role of international operations, not going back to it's old role of collective defense.That's why nearly every European country let their armed forces atrophy beyond repair — Tzeentch
I'm not going to bother correcting you. You just said that Ireland does not have bellicose neighbours who challenge their rights over territory.They don't have bellicose neighbors. Especially when UK and/or Spain aren't declaring that they (Ireland or Portugal) are artificial countries and basically they belong to be part of their nations again. — ssu
Or is somehow Sweden, Finland, the Baltic States not in Europe? — ssu
And that obviously would have continued... — ssu
Many countries can have border disputes and tense relations. Worst in Europe are perhaps Greece and Turkey, who likely have avoided a full-blown war because both are members of NATO (and thus honor NATO's article 1.) But these tensions aren't as high as the probability for war is very, very low.Seriously? Are you that uneducated, or just so caught up in this media narrative?
You just said that Ireland does not have bellicose neighbours who challenge their rights over territory. — Isaac
It should speak volumes that Ukraine, a relatively poor country, sports Europe's most effective military. And it is taking a beating as we speak. Yet, despite pursuing a policy that practically forces Russia to expand its military, there's not a hint of urgency in Europe's military expenditures. — Tzeentch
Really? Haven't taken any measures?None of these states have militaries that are on a modern operational level, nor have they taken any steps towards making them so. — Tzeentch
Sweden’s government has announced plans for a significant boost in military spending to two percent of gross domestic product (GDP) “as soon as possible”, citing the security threat from Russia’s war in Ukraine.
“The war in Europe is going to affect the Swedish people. We need to continue to strengthen the Sweden defence capability,” Andersson said.
“The security situation in Sweden’s vicinity has deteriorated over time. The Russian attack on Ukraine further exacerbates that,” she said.
Andersson also warned that the number of young people called up to do mandatory military service – which was reintroduced in 2017 – would increase.
The right-wing opposition is expected to approve the plan in parliament.
Wrong.You were misrepresenting history to promote the foreign policy of a country which openly profits from war. — Isaac
Really? Haven't taken any measures? — ssu
Let's take the example of Sweden: — ssu
Sweden has roughly 24,000 active military personnel. That's less than one tenth of the Ukrainian military when the invasion began, while Sweden has thrice the GDP of Ukraine. — Tzeentch
It will take more than the Swedish government announcing "plans" to drag it out of the mud. — Tzeentch
aiming — Christoffer
aiming — Christoffer
aiming — Christoffer
It was decades since we last did something like this. — Christoffer
You haven't done anything yet. — Isaac
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